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  #221  
Old 23.05.2015, 10:08
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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I am, and generally rode with them off.

Now I have DLR installed on my Guuzis so I can keep them off.

I think it's a stupid law, as is the seatbelt law.

Tom
You're probably not so keen on helmets either??
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  #222  
Old 23.05.2015, 10:19
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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You're probably not so keen on helmets either??
There's a difference between being in favour of something and making it compulsory.
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  #223  
Old 23.05.2015, 10:25
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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You're probably not so keen on helmets either??
Actually, I am and always have been despite having lived half my life in a no-helmet-law state.

Except on mopeds and bicycles.

Tom
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  #224  
Old 23.05.2015, 10:49
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Actually, I am and always have been despite having lived half my life in a no-helmet-law state.

Except on mopeds and bicycles.

Tom
Because why? Moped riders and cyclists have harder heads?

While cycling myself some years ago, I saw a woman thrown off her bicycle in Zurich and she was knocked unconscious as her head hit the road. She recovered, a helmet would have helped. I went and bought one immediately...
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  #225  
Old 23.05.2015, 11:00
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Because why? Moped riders and cyclists have harder heads?
No, because of the difference in the speed capabilities.

My moped was good for 50MPH, however.

Tom
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  #226  
Old 23.05.2015, 11:06
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

I am sure you have all been in the situation, when you want to overtake but cannot be sure there are no cars approaching, as the curving road has vegetation on the sides. With a car approaching with headlights on you can see it a kilometre away, and so this law must be adding to road safety.
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  #227  
Old 23.05.2015, 11:16
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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I am sure you have all been in the situation, when you want to overtake but cannot be sure there are no cars approaching, as the curving road has vegetation on the sides. With a car approaching with headlights on you can see it a kilometre away, and so this law must be adding to road safety.
False assumptions, for many reasons.

First and foremost, if you overtake when you can't be sure there's nothing approaching then you don't deserve to be allowed on the road. DLRs won't make a jot of difference to the sort of person that takes such risks. Indeed it might actually make them worse, on the false assumption that anything approaching will be more visible due to DLRs so they can safely overtake even when they can't actually see properly.
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  #228  
Old 23.05.2015, 11:18
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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My moped was good for 50MPH, however.
Yes, of course it was. And a well-tuned (i.e. loud 'spannies' fitted) Garreli could hit 60mph.

We really used to believe this stuff when we were 16, didn't we?
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  #229  
Old 23.05.2015, 11:25
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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I am sure you have all been in the situation, when you want to overtake but cannot be sure there are no cars approaching, as the curving road has vegetation on the sides. With a car approaching with headlights on you can see it a kilometre away, and so this law must be adding to road safety.
Does this follow? Of course, a car with its lights on is more visible from further away. But you can't generalise from this to conclude that the law must be adding to road safety generally.

For example, the introduction of the law will itself change driving conditions - drivers can now assume that all other cars have their lights on. But there will always be exceptions - let's say that 5% of cars don't have their lights on for whatever reason (foreign, ignorant, electrical fault). In the situation which you describe, those 5% of cars will present an increased danger, and only because of the new law.

Driving is safer when people think it's dangerous, because they take more care.
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  #230  
Old 23.05.2015, 12:42
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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From what I have observed during a recent trip to Switzerland, here is a law that is not being enforced!
Yes, still many drivers not putting them on. And another problem noticed since the law was introduced is that when driving in tunnels people forget to put their main headlights/rear lights on so have no illumination at the back of the car.

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I am sure you have all been in the situation, when you want to overtake but cannot be sure there are no cars approaching, as the curving road has vegetation on the sides. With a car approaching with headlights on you can see it a kilometre away, and so this law must be adding to road safety.
If the road is curving you won't see them a kilometer away headlights on or not.
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  #231  
Old 23.05.2015, 12:43
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Driving is safer when people think it's dangerous, because they take more care.
Hence my proposal to replace the driver-side airbag with a metal spike in the middle of the steering wheel.
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  #232  
Old 23.05.2015, 13:15
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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I am sure you have all been in the situation, when you want to overtake but cannot be sure there are no cars approaching, as the curving road has vegetation on the sides. With a car approaching with headlights on you can see it a kilometre away, and so this law must be adding to road safety.
The title of this thread is misleading; you do not have to have headlights on; daylight running lights are enough.

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Yes, still many drivers not putting them on. And another problem noticed since the law was introduced is that when driving in tunnels people forget to put their main headlights/rear lights on so have no illumination at the back of the car.

If the road is curving you won't see them a kilometer away headlights on or not.
Interesting point about tunnels; I never thought about that.

Actually I could not find the law about lights in tunnels; so far as I know they only mandate front lights - does the law actually mention head lights and rear lights? Anybody know?
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  #233  
Old 23.05.2015, 13:50
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

imho this law is useless not because of it's efficacy or not, but because cars have mandatory DRLs on a european homologation level now, all the money spent on ads and policing for nothing, it's not the few "old" cars that make much of a difference imho (and those cars don't even make many kms so don't have that much impact imho).
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  #234  
Old 23.05.2015, 14:10
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Does this follow? Of course, a car with its lights on is more visible from further away. But you can't generalise from this to conclude that the law must be adding to road safety generally.



For example, the introduction of the law will itself change driving conditions - drivers can now assume that all other cars have their lights on. But there will always be exceptions - let's say that 5% of cars don't have their lights on for whatever reason (foreign, ignorant, electrical fault). In the situation which you describe, those 5% of cars will present an increased danger, and only because of the new law.



Driving is safer when people think it's dangerous, because they take more care.

Or motorcycles and bicycles which have meager, if any, lights, hardly visible at daytime.
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  #235  
Old 23.05.2015, 14:14
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Actually I could not find the law about lights in tunnels; so far as I know they only mandate front lights - does the law actually mention head lights and rear lights? Anybody know?
See item 324 of the Ordnungsbussenverordnung. Same rules apply in tunnels and night-time driving.
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  #236  
Old 23.05.2015, 14:43
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Yes, of course it was. And a well-tuned (i.e. loud 'spannies' fitted) Garreli could hit 60mph.

We really used to believe this stuff when we were 16, didn't we?
I was 18, actually.

Car I got at 16, motorcycle and moped at 18.

1960 Motobecane with 19" wheels, paid $50 for it.

Tom
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  #237  
Old 31.07.2015, 15:10
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

An RAF fighter pilot's guide to surviving on the roads.

http://www.portsmouthctc.org.uk/a-fi...-on-the-roads/
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  #238  
Old 31.07.2015, 15:41
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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An RAF fighter pilot's guide to surviving on the roads.

http://www.portsmouthctc.org.uk/a-fi...-on-the-roads/
Where he states:

"Drive with your lights on or, if this seems extreme, have daylight running lights fitted — if you don’t already have them. Aviation research shows that contrast is the single most important factor in determining the likelihood of acquiring an object visually."
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  #239  
Old 31.07.2015, 16:25
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Yes, I suppose that's similar. So presumably the law is justified by a statistical improvement in general road safety, rather than by a reasoned argument about particular situations where it would be dangerous not to have your lights on.

Has there been a statistical improvement in road safety as a result of the daytime lights law?
That's probably impossible, as any change (in either direction) could have a gazillion potential causes.

With that said, which law doesn't work on probability? For preventive laws that seems undeniable to me, provided one agrees on the logic it's based upon. E.g. you can drive at 80km/h in the 50s zone without doing harm 90-99.9% of the time. But that's not the problem, the remainder is. Outlawing it reduces the number of dangerous unwanted situations, and thereby the harmful unwanted outcome.

I think one could easily argue that punishing laws also have a preventive character - definitely not always or they'd be superfluous, yet I'd find it very difficult to argue completely against such a proposition. So for them it's also about probability of keeping some from breaking that given paragraph.

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There's a difference between being in favour of something and making it compulsory.
There's also a difference between paying oneself for the consequences, and seeing the bill paid by the public.

Last edited by Urs Max; 31.07.2015 at 16:37.
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  #240  
Old 31.07.2015, 17:35
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Re: Day-time car headlights mandatory 1.01.2014

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Where he states:

"Drive with your lights on or, if this seems extreme, have daylight running lights fitted — if you don’t already have them. Aviation research shows that contrast is the single most important factor in determining the likelihood of acquiring an object visually."
Daylight running lights are not that bright, I wonder if anybody has actually tested if vehicles with DLRs are significantly more visible than those without and in what conditions?
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