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  #121  
Old 04.11.2015, 22:20
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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You are aware they are completely different engines aren't you.
I know. I just stated my scenario and maybe it could also apply to the ea888 engine of the Audi. A few are also known to consume a lot of oil, sometimes more than a liter on 1000 kms. Cause could be defective pistons/pinston rings which let oil into the combustion chamber which could cause a engine failure in the long run.
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  #122  
Old 05.11.2015, 13:36
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

So there's two people on here who have bought lemons, dispelling the myth that Swiss cars are somehow safe purchases because
the Swiss are fanatical about servicing and cleaning.

There are lessons to be be learnt for the rest of us, so where do the posters think they went wrong?
Buying a car with too high a mileage?
Too low a budget?
Not getting a TCS check? Or going to view with a cynical/more experienced tyre kicker?
Buying a higher spec but older car over a lower spec but newer/lower mileage?
Being blinded by the desire to buy the car and ignoring any warning signs?
Being under pressure to get a car in short order?
Not researching the car/engine in question thoroughly via forums etc for typical/known issues?
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  #123  
Old 05.11.2015, 13:44
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

Difficult to say without the full story but see below

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So there's two people on here who have bought lemons, dispelling the myth that Swiss cars are somehow safe purchases because
the Swiss are fanatical about servicing and cleaning.

There are lessons to be be learnt for the rest of us, so where do the posters think they went wrong?
Buying a car with too high a mileage? Possibly, but a well maintained high mileage car from a good brand should be a good buy. Just double check when things are likely to fail and whether they have been done.
Too low a budget? Now that depends, if the car has a fresh mfk then it is only really the engine/gearbox that will fail. IMHO you have to know what you are doing shopping under 5k
Not getting a TCS check? Or going to view with a cynical/more experienced tyre kicker? Probably (see above). Service history, repairs, known issues, service intervals etc. Also making sure the test drive is long enough, mixed roads and you have 2 people to check exhaust smoke. (Be cautious viewing a "warmed" car
Buying a higher spec but older car over a lower spec but newer/lower mileage? See above
Being blinded by the desire to buy the car and ignoring any warning signs? We can all be blinded by that
Being under pressure to get a car in short order? Possibly
Not researching the car/engine in question thoroughly via forums etc for typical/known issues? See above
Furthermore:
At the bottom end of the market you don't just buy the car. It is important to consider who is selling, where they are and what their business is. If they are the village mechanic you're more likely to get a better car for the money than a pile them high sell most for export dealer 200km away. And buy on "history and condition" not "age and KMs".

Last edited by dodgyken; 05.11.2015 at 13:58.
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  #124  
Old 05.11.2015, 14:11
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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Difficult to say without the full story but see below
I don't agree with a lot of this actually. The definition of a 'quality brand' is outdated and assuming the same level of maintenance and care a Renault should be capable of the same mileage as a Mercedes.

Historically this was not the case but it has been for at least 10 years. However, a lot of cars have 'common issues' which you need to be aware of (for example the VW 1.8T oil consumption mentioned above). I would be no more comfortable buying a 200k KM BMW than a 200k KM Ford or Peugeot.

Fundamentally buying a used car is always a bit of a risk, you have to remember the previous owner decided to sell the car and you don't know why. Maybe the colour didn't match the next year's Vignette, or maybe they noticed a tell-tale sign of impending mechanical disaster.

In my experience I tend to either buy new or close to it (0-2 years old) or buy something moderately disposable which isn't the end of the world if I have to bin it. What I would never do is spend 15k on a used BMW 5er as the risk of it going wrong is just too high.

For someone with no knowledge of, or interest in, cars I would always recommend buying as new and low mileage as possible. You can lease a wide range of new cars for sub 200 CHF per month and a brand new Skoda Rapid, Dacia Duster or Ford Tourneo Courier makes a ton more sense than spending 10k on a 7 year old Audi with 160k on the clock. At the end of the day some people will want a 'flasher' car but if you want hassle free motoring it makes sense.

Before anyone says that an old Audi is better to drive than a new Dacia I'd personally disagree, but most of the population simply won't notice anyway.

Just my 2p, and others will probably disagree but to answer the initial question more concisely I think buying a 170k mile Audi is risky and I'd never spend 'good money' on a car like that personally.
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  #125  
Old 05.11.2015, 14:37
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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I don't agree with a lot of this actually. The definition of a 'quality brand' is outdated and assuming the same level of maintenance and care a Renault should be capable of the same mileage as a Mercedes. Assuming the same quality of components - which is simply not true

Historically this was not the case but it has been for at least 10 years. However, a lot of cars have 'common issues' which you need to be aware of (for example the VW 1.8T oil consumption mentioned above). I would be no more comfortable buying a 200k KM BMW than a 200k KM Ford or Peugeot. Premium cars tend to have premium interiors and better seats. I developed a back problem from a high mileage Ford!

Fundamentally buying a used car is always a bit of a risk, you have to remember the previous owner decided to sell the car and you don't know why. Maybe the colour didn't match the next year's Vignette, or maybe they noticed a tell-tale sign of impending mechanical disaster.

In my experience I tend to either buy new or close to it (0-2 years old) or buy something moderately disposable which isn't the end of the world if I have to bin it. What I would never do is spend 15k on a used BMW 5er as the risk of it going wrong is just too high. Agree. Under 5k you can get something solid, well maintained, freshly serviced and mfked which will give a good couple - if not more - years of service.

For someone with no knowledge of, or interest in, cars I would always recommend buying as new and low mileage as possible. Agree You can lease a wide range of new cars for sub 200 CHF per month and a brand new Skoda Rapid, Dacia Duster or Ford Tourneo Courier makes a ton more sense than spending 10k on a 7 year old Audi with 160k on the clock. At the end of the day some people will want a 'flasher' car but if you want hassle free motoring it makes sense. It depends - if someone likes a good handling car, with good ride quality and premium feel none of those will do. A brand new Dacia Duster is very close in price to a 3-4 year old BMW X3.

Before anyone says that an old Audi is better to drive than a new Dacia I'd personally disagree, but most of the population simply won't notice anyway. Audis in general don't drive well but even my wife can feel the dynamic differences between the cars

Just my 2p, and others will probably disagree but to answer the initial question more concisely I think buying a 170k mile Audi is risky and I'd never spend 'good money' on a car like that personally. If you're paying under 5k and the history is good then there is no reason not to.
To me 10-20k is the danger-zone for cars - too expensive to dispose of when something goes wrong - too expensive to fix.

Other things that I consider:
- I'm really not a fan of modern "cloth" interiors - the fabrics feel cheap even if they are "technical" and often feel too thin and flimsy.
- Non-"solid" brands till can't do plastics - they are either too flimsy, too shiny or too dull. Even the latest Volvo V60 felt let down by poor quality plastics. And don't get me started on the buttons in the Nissan GTR - I felt like I needed a show afterwards. They were cheap, wobbly, lacking feel - ghastly. Mind you Aston Martin don't exactly have the best interior buttons!!

I rate the Skoda Yeti - I think it does pretty much everything anybody would ever want of a car - and I know a forum user who has one and really rates it. But it can still feel a little low rent inside.

Perhaps the years of having Nappa or full aniline leather interiors have spoiled me - but I want to drive in a car that feels solid and luxurious - and would rather sacrifice a few years of youth for the privilege.

(I bought a 270k BMW 525 for 2,900chf - it clocked 9k in a 5 week trip and then another 9k over the next year or so - possibly more. I bought on condition, history and based on who was selling. It was magnificent, and I'd take that car any day over a 10 year old Ford Focus) This one

EDIT:
If I didn't have to renovate a house at the moment I'd buy this in a flash - Alpina B10 - its not the most desirable form (BiTurbo) and lacks the rear spoiler, but the interior has stood the test of time well and it has the manual box. It sounds proper and 255PS and 325NM means its no slouch. Prices have also bottomed out.
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  #126  
Old 05.11.2015, 14:43
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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367ps for 1820kg (Merc) vs 550ps for 2040kg

The Jag will be more economical, more comfortable, more spacious, better handling and faster.
Except for the gorgeous F Type, I can't stand the current Jaguar design. The XE/XF/XJ remind me of Korean and Japanese cars, which are not necessarily ugly or bad, but don't have the appeal of German or Italian cars.

Instead of a jag sedan I would rather get one of this:

http://www.autoscout24.ch/it/d/maser...3d2014%26r%3d5
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  #127  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:12
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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For someone with no knowledge of, or interest in, cars I would always recommend buying as new and low mileage as possible. You can lease a wide range of new cars for sub 200 CHF per month and a brand new Skoda Rapid, Dacia Duster or Ford Tourneo Courier makes a ton more sense than spending 10k on a 7 year old Audi with 160k on the clock. At the end of the day some people will want a 'flasher' car but if you want hassle free motoring it makes sense.
The difference in depreciation of a new car compared to a 7-year old can easily pay for a lot of repairs...

But I agree that a new car often (but not always!) gives more hassle free motoring than an older car.
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  #128  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:18
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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There are lessons to be be learnt for the rest of us, so where do the posters think they went wrong?
Buying a car with too high a mileage?
Too low a budget?
Not getting a TCS check? Or going to view with a cynical/more experienced tyre kicker?
Buying a higher spec but older car over a lower spec but newer/lower mileage?
Being blinded by the desire to buy the car and ignoring any warning signs?
Being under pressure to get a car in short order?
Not researching the car/engine in question thoroughly via forums etc for typical/known issues?
Maybe a combination of the above or just simply bad luck? No matter how thorough you are before buying a car, it can simply break down on your first drive Of course, you can reduce that risk a lot, but you can never reduce it to 0.
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  #129  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:21
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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To me 10-20k is the danger-zone for cars - too expensive to dispose of when something goes wrong - too expensive to fix. Absolutely


I rate the Skoda Yeti - I think it does pretty much everything anybody would ever want of a car - and I know a forum user who has one and really rates it. But it can still feel a little low rent inside. It's a brilliant car, and I don't think the interior is that low rent actually.

Perhaps the years of having Nappa or full aniline leather interiors have spoiled me - but I want to drive in a car that feels solid and luxurious - and would rather sacrifice a few years of youth for the privilege. Same here, I was looking at swapping into a Disco Sport but it feels a bit cheap compared to my car with premium leather trimmed everything

(I bought a 270k BMW 525 for 2,900chf - it clocked 9k in a 5 week trip and then another 9k over the next year or so - possibly more. I bought on condition, history and based on who was selling. It was magnificent, and I'd take that car any day over a 10 year old Ford Focus) Me too, like a shot but in CH that's disposable banger money. I suspect the aforementioned Exxon Vald-Audi was more like 10k or even more
I can actually speak with some authority on component quality, cheap dash plastics do not mean the car is mechanically any less solid. All the OEMs buy their parts from the same tier two and three suppliers, and long gone are the days of Mercedes buying them to a higher spec than Fiat. The A Class comes with an engine and gearbox from Renault, Mini used engines shared with Peugeot, Toyota buy engines from BMW and my RR Evoque shares an engine with a Focus.

The main difference is in the way the cars are cared for. Generally a BMW is worth more than a Renault and more likely to be properly serviced and repaired when required. They spend more of their life being maintained by franchised dealers when the Renault will have dropped into the independent repairer sector earlier in its life. This then opens up the opportunity for them to be fitted with cheap aftermarket parts which won't last as long, and be serviced using oil which doesn't meet the OEM specs with the ensuing detrimental effect on engine life. As a result the average 10 year old 200k KM Renault Megane is likely to have had a much harder life than a 10 year old 200k KM BMW 118d, but if they were maintained and driven in the same way there is no reason to expect the BMW (or other 'premium' car) to be any more dependable.

Nice ambient lighting and soft touch dash plastics do not a reliable car make
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  #130  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:24
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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cheap dash plastics do not mean the car is mechanically any less solid.
But it's always better to sit in your broken down Rolls enjoying the interior, than in a Renault Twingo
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  #131  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:28
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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Nice ambient lighting and soft touch dash plastics do not a reliable car make
But they make them infinitely nicer places to be. For example 26k gets you a brand new top spec Ford Tourneo Courier - 95ps TDCI engine, heated front seats, navi, rear parking sensors.

In the same price band you can get a 2011 BMW X3 - with a choice of engines, but most 20d (184ps). It will be a far nicer place to be and it is that factor which will sway buyers.

EDIT
That doesn't mean I recommend buying a 2011 X3 20d but for 25-30k you could do a whole lot worse.
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  #132  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:37
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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The difference in depreciation of a new car compared to a 7-year old can easily pay for a lot of repairs...

But I agree that a new car often (but not always!) gives more hassle free motoring than an older car.
That's debatable actually. We all know how the Swiss dealers like to kick you in the balls come trade-in time so the depreciation on a 7 year old car from a dealer can be equally savage.

Buying new gets you subsidised finance/leasing, four new tyres, no need for MFK, and normally a chunk of free servicing too. It's also likely to be cheaper to tax and more economical on fuel too.

You can have a new Nissan Note for 159 per month with no downpayment or a Qashqai for 299 - that's 1908 or 3588 per year respectively. Giving myself a theoretical 10k budget I found this Audi as a 'flasher' alternative - new MFK, just serviced, 1 year guarantee.

http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/3543639

Your year 1 lease payments on the Qashqai will cover the day 1 depreciation on the Audi (dealer margin and warranty costs will be at least 3,5k) so realistically it'll be 14-18 months before the depreciation on the Audi matches the lease outgoings on the Nissan. By the end of the 3 years you'll have paid 10,700 for the Nissan and 10,000 for the Audi. Of course the Audi (then 9 or 10 years old) will have a value of maybe 4-5k when traded in but from that you've got to pay for an MFK, breakdown cover, and anything else which might go wrong. On top of that there's the extra fuel costs and tax so at best you're going to be up by 3k, or less than 100 CHF per month.

With the Note, the Audi will depreciate by more than the total 3 year lease payments over the same time period. Sure, it's not as nice a car but it makes a lot more financial sense.
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  #133  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:40
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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Sure, it's not as nice a car but it makes a lot more financial sense.
At which point you are comparing apples with oranges.

You drive an Evoque - why don't you drive a Qashqai - it would be cheaper? But the Evoque is much nicer!!
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  #134  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:42
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But they make them infinitely nicer places to be. For example 26k gets you a brand new top spec Ford Tourneo Courier - 95ps TDCI engine, heated front seats, navi, rear parking sensors.

In the same price band you can get a 2011 BMW X3 - with a choice of engines, but most 20d (184ps). It will be a far nicer place to be and it is that factor which will sway buyers.

EDIT
That doesn't mean I recommend buying a 2011 X3 20d but for 25-30k you could do a whole lot worse.
If you spend 26k on a Tourneo Courier you need your head looking at

Of course the BMW is a nicer place to be, and people will be swayed by that (and rightly so) but 18k will get you a new Dacia Duster 4x4 with decent spec, while an X3 will be an 07 or 08 for the same price and if I was already stretching myself to buy the car the Dacia is substantially more predictable as an ownership prospect than a 7 year old BMW.
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  #135  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:44
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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At which point you are comparing apples with oranges.

You drive an Evoque - why don't you drive a Qashqai - it would be cheaper? But the Evoque is much nicer!!
I can afford the Evoque, and it has a Land Rover warranty (I bought it when it was 2 years old). If I couldn't afford the RR I would buy a Qashqai, what I wouldn't do is buy a 2009 Audi Q5. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make!
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  #136  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:48
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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I should talk sh*t in any case since I'm eyeing a 458 spider.

I would wait until next spring/summer, as the prices for the 458 are coming down with the intro of the 488.
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  #137  
Old 05.11.2015, 15:50
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I would wait until next spring/summer, as the prices for the 458 are coming down with the intro of the 488.
The grey with grey/red trim at Foitek is pretty nice - lacks PDC and camera though. Mileage is a bit high but that means it has been used and any lower mileage foibles have been sorted. I can't see it selling before April next year.

Too many have in Switzerland have a dreary spec.
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  #138  
Old 05.11.2015, 16:24
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The grey with grey/red trim at Foitek is pretty nice - lacks PDC and camera though.
why do you want to look backwards in a Ferrari?

Last edited by k_and_e; 05.11.2015 at 16:39.
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  #139  
Old 05.11.2015, 16:48
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I would wait until next spring/summer, as the prices for the 458 are coming down with the intro of the 488.
I was thinking that the 488 release is mostly already priced in - ie. most of the people upgrading to 488 have placed their orders/are taking deliveries and want to get rid of the 458. Plus I'd expect them to be a touch more eager to sell now so they are not stuck with a car until next spring.

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The grey with grey/red trim at Foitek is pretty nice - lacks PDC and camera though. Mileage is a bit high but that means it has been used and any lower mileage foibles have been sorted. I can't see it selling before April next year.

Too many have in Switzerland have a dreary spec.
The Spec is an issue quite often, but it also looks like people don't look at it too much so it doesn't affect the resale value all that much perhaps.

There's also the thing that I really don't see the value of cruise-control, rear facing camera and other comfort doodads in a car that is meant to be driven roof-down mad as the dickens over passes. I have a badass landship for comfy cruising already

Btw, what do you think of this: www.autoscout24.ch/3492510 - spec is a bit spartan, but it has rear PDC at least and I got a 15k discount and extra years of Ferrari Warranty promised (not in writing yet).
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  #140  
Old 05.11.2015, 16:54
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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That's debatable actually.
Most things are... otherwise this forum would be pretty boring!

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You can have a new Nissan Note for 159 per month with no downpayment or a Qashqai for 299 - that's 1908 or 3588 per year respectively. Giving myself a theoretical 10k budget I found this Audi as a 'flasher' alternative - new MFK, just serviced, 1 year guarantee.
http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/3543639
I don't think a potential Nissan Note buyer is considering a 6 year old Audi as an alternative. If anything a Nissan Note buyer is looking for a cheap motoring experience. With a new - leased - car the buyer knows his/hers costs for the next 3 years - that's like an "insurance", which for many is worth paying a (small) premium for. But the same buyer could also be looking for a used cheap car as an alternative - and potentially have an even cheaper motoring experience.

If you are driving more than 15.000km/year, the leasing often becomes rather expensive.

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With the Note, the Audi will depreciate by more than the total 3 year lease payments over the same time period.
Maybe it will, maybe it wont...
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