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  #141  
Old 05.11.2015, 17:00
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

I think there's a fair chance that a 10k 6 year old car bought from a dealer will shed more than 50% of the sticker price in 3 years. You'd have to buy very well for that not to be the case in Switzerland.

I wasn't suggesting that the same person would be looking at a 6 year old A3 or a Note, it was more about showing that it can work out cheaper to lease a new car (with a higher sticker price) than to spend 10k on a used car, even before any unexpected repair costs are factored in.

There are a few examples on here of people buying cars in the 10-20k bracket and having big problems with them, but there are also a lot of people who take the view all finance is evil and it's better to spend cash rather than lease. I don't agree with this view at all, and as cars become more complex and expensive to repair it makes more and more sense to lease and let someone else take the risk.
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  #142  
Old 05.11.2015, 17:07
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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...as cars become more complex and expensive to repair it makes more and more sense to lease and let someone else take the risk.
You have to bear the reparation and maintenance costs even if you lease the car. Leasing just locks you in a specific re-sale value that might or might not be higher than the market price at the maturity of the contract. Note that there is a strong asymmetry of information - the dealer usually knows the market much better than the customer and thus will set a residual value such that they are more likely to come out on top.

I do agree with your other points though, leasing sometimes makes sense. You might be able to reinvest the cash and come out better than buying outright. You'll also be protected in the event that the car manufacturer cheated on their emission tests and the re-sale value of your car bombs overnight
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  #143  
Old 05.11.2015, 17:09
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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I was thinking that the 488 release is mostly already priced in - ie. most of the people upgrading to 488 have placed their orders/are taking deliveries and want to get rid of the 458. Plus I'd expect them to be a touch more eager to sell now so they are not stuck with a car until next spring.



The Spec is an issue quite often, but it also looks like people don't look at it too much so it doesn't affect the resale value all that much perhaps.

There's also the thing that I really don't see the value of cruise-control, rear facing camera and other comfort doodads in a car that is meant to be driven roof-down mad as the dickens over passes. I have a badass landship for comfy cruising already

Btw, what do you think of this: www.autoscout24.ch/3492510 - spec is a bit spartan, but it has rear PDC at least and I got a 15k discount and extra years of Ferrari Warranty promised (not in writing yet).
The 458 is becoming a tremendous buy with the recent depreciation!
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  #144  
Old 05.11.2015, 17:09
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

On maintenance most cars sold new in CH now come with a servicing pack so that's covered for the duration of the lease, and for some for the first 10 years of the cars life. Basically you pay for brakes and tyres which you're unlikely to need either of in the three years you have it.
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  #145  
Old 05.11.2015, 20:41
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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I think there's a fair chance that a 10k 6 year old car bought from a dealer will shed more than 50% of the sticker price in 3 years.
You're probably right!

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... as cars become more complex and expensive to repair it makes more and more sense to lease and let someone else take the risk.
Obviously it is always better to have an insurance or a guarantee - and as such a new car is a safer bet. Regarding the financial leasing - the dealer will most likely always come out on top in the end - otherwise they will not stay in business for long.

I haven't tried leasing a car here, but I expect you have to return it in a pretty good shape - so any minor scuffs or dents, you'll have to pay for - and those can quickly add up! If you were selling the car yourself those would probably mean relatively less to the resale value - and in any case they wouldn't make much of a difference on a 9 year old car.
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  #146  
Old 06.11.2015, 08:07
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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Btw, what do you think of this: www.autoscout24.ch/3492510 - spec is a bit spartan, but it has rear PDC at least and I got a 15k discount and extra years of Ferrari Warranty promised (not in writing yet).
I like the wheels - certainly better than the silly thin 5-spoke ones. Interior looks a bit low-rent - it doesn't feel (from the photos) like a 300k+ car - which is a shame. It does have the wing shields (which are nice aand ludicrously expensive option). I'm also not a fan of black interiors on red Ferraris.

Castellana tends to be fairly high priced too (based on the cars I have seen) and considering this is 10k more than the Foitek one puts me off.

(All IMHO - obviously)

@Jamiebae
With the number of cars offered with free servicing (excluding consumerables AND fluids) the 3-5 year point offers very good value - you can typically buy at half the new price with a car that has been very well maintained - you can normally push for a 2 year warranty, fresh service and the first MFK - and have 3 years of motoring as "cheap" as leasing a less desirable car. I'd guess that a 3 year old BMW will ride and be more comfortable than a brand new Nissan Note.

I drove our Passat last night on the motorway for the first time in 6 months or so - it remains (at 14 years old) a good solid piece of kit, quiet, plenty of torque and the interior has worn its years well (apart from the broken rear ashtray and the vinyl covered hard plastics). However it has now clocked 200k km and I can feel that it isn't quite as well planted as it should be, there is just a little bit more fidget in the ride than I would expect but I know this is just down to the aging process.
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  #147  
Old 06.11.2015, 09:21
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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I like the wheels - certainly better than the silly thin 5-spoke ones. Interior looks a bit low-rent - it doesn't feel (from the photos) like a 300k+ car - which is a shame. It does have the wing shields (which are nice aand ludicrously expensive option). I'm also not a fan of black interiors on red Ferraris.

Castellana tends to be fairly high priced too (based on the cars I have seen) and considering this is 10k more than the Foitek one puts me off.
Thanks that's good advice. I agree the price is higher, but I found Castellana is much more amenable to negotiation (ie. the 15k discount). When I was at Foitek a month or so back, they weren't keen even just on repairing some scratches on the rims, let alone discuss discounts. I agree that without said discount, it wouldn't be a particularly awesome deal.

There's another, somewhat better specced car at Pierre Sudan in Zug so I'll check that out too.

Fingers crossed the good weather holds for a bit longer and I can give one of these beasts a spin!
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  #148  
Old 06.11.2015, 10:25
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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We are selling 2 cars as we are returning to Canada in a few weeks.
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  #149  
Old 06.11.2015, 10:33
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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So there's two people on here who have bought lemons, dispelling the myth that Swiss cars are somehow safe purchases because
the Swiss are fanatical about servicing and cleaning.

There are lessons to be be learnt for the rest of us, so where do the posters think they went wrong?
Buying a car with too high a mileage? To me high mileage is not an huge issue, esp with what should/was a reputable mark.
Too low a budget? Everyone has to have a budget.
Not getting a TCS check? Or going to view with a cynical/more experienced tyre kicker? Car came with a new MFK, also I had never heard of a TCS check
Buying a higher spec but older car over a lower spec but newer/lower mileage? Personally I would prefer a higher spec, older car. If everyone went the for newest car they could afford there would be an awful lot of more upmarket cars out there that no one could sell
Being blinded by the desire to buy the car and ignoring any warning signs? As I said, the car had a new MFK and I did not see any warning signs when test drove it.
Being under pressure to get a car in short order? Yes, this is true. Wanted to get a car before the ski season started, I know I can go on the train but it is an arse to do so.
Not researching the car/engine in question thoroughly via forums etc for typical/known issues?True, but I never expected a brand such as Audi to have such issues, we live and learn
On another note. The car was sold at the end of its lease.

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I drove our Passat last night
Funnily enough the car I got rid of when I came here was a 14 year old Passat, had over 300K km on clock and ran fine apart from knackered CV joints.
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  #150  
Old 06.11.2015, 10:39
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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On another note. The car was sold at the end of its lease.

Funnily enough the car I got rid of when I came here was a 14 year old Passat, had over 300K km on clock and ran fine apart from knackered CV joints.
Sometimes you get lucky - sometimes not. Just keep us posted on what the garage says. It just goes to show how important a warranty can be.
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  #151  
Old 06.11.2015, 10:55
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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Thanks that's good advice. I agree the price is higher, but I found Castellana is much more amenable to negotiation (ie. the 15k discount). When I was at Foitek a month or so back, they weren't keen even just on repairing some scratches on the rims, let alone discuss discounts. I agree that without said discount, it wouldn't be a particularly awesome deal.

There's another, somewhat better specced car at Pierre Sudan in Zug so I'll check that out too.

Fingers crossed the good weather holds for a bit longer and I can give one of these beasts a spin!
The wheels that dodgyken mentioned about the 458 in Castellana are indeed better looking, but they are cast. The optional thin-5-spoked wheels are forged and command a bit more on the price. Also, the one from Castellana comes with the regular seats. The optional racing seats not only look the business but also they are surprisingly more comfortable. As far as resale goes, these two options are very sought after, together with the shields..

This one from Foitek is 10k more, but it has the seats and wheels. Add the cost of the other options and it seems a better deal:

http://www.autoscout24.ch/it/d/ferra...p%3d10%26r%3d5
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  #152  
Old 06.11.2015, 11:46
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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The wheels that dodgyken mentioned about the 458 in Castellana are indeed better looking, but they are cast. The optional thin-5-spoked wheels are forged and command a bit more on the price. Also, the one from Castellana comes with the regular seats. The optional racing seats not only look the business but also they are surprisingly more comfortable. As far as resale goes, these two options are very sought after, together with the shields..

This one from Foitek is 10k more, but it has the seats and wheels. Add the cost of the other options and it seems a better deal: <snip>
I actually tried the racing seats (not during spirited driving I'll grant you) and didn't find them comfy at all. I suppose different butts favor different seats

Otherwise good stuff.
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  #153  
Old 06.11.2015, 15:52
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

Lots of 458 related content to talk about here!
Not many 488s have been delivered yet. As more are, I expect a decent number of 458s to come to market, depressing prices. I don't think it's priced in fully yet. Also I'd expect Spiders to be swapped for Spiders.

The Foitek cars I can add some insight to. The grey one needs to be prepped to include alloy refurbish and new front tyres. They will add front and rear PDC in the price, but it won't be integrated into car systems and they can't add a camera. Didn't seem to want to move on price. The red one is on SOR, so doesn't come with a warranty. Standard price for a 2 year warranty is c. 10k. That explains the price difference a bit. It also doesn't have PDC or camera. I think the grey one is still a bit over priced die to mileage despite being the cheapest on the market. Agree with DK that it won't move til Spring.

PDC as a minimum and preferably camera are a must for me because the rear visibility is terrible and despite a preference for going forward at speed, parking is still necessary and Ferrari body work is expensive to repair.

Racing seats are 50:50 in terms of what people prefer. I want one with, but may compromise.

The red Sudan car is pretty much perfect in options for my tastes, apart from the seats and I'd have liked the centre console finished in carbon. It's also a bit cliched in red/black and Rosso Scuderia looks a little flat compared to Corsa. My preference would be Rosso Fiarano, but that's a 30k!!! option so pretty rare. I'll be taking a look at the Sudan car in the near future.
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  #154  
Old 06.11.2015, 16:24
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

I also think the Sudan car is a bit expensive, and the color too orange for my taste compared to the classic rosso corsa. It has the shields, red stitching on the seats (also extra) and red break calipers - all good. I would not be too bothered about extras like a rear view camera - just stick your head out the window These cars are not that difficult to park. Mileage is quite high for a 2013 Ferrari (my 2003 360 only had Km 20K when I bought it last March). Higher mileage is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does hurt the re-sale value.

Ferrari prices are a strange thing indeed. The Testarossa has doubled in the last two, three years. The F355 prices are on the rise. Last spring I looked at a F355 GTS for CHF 50K. Today that car would cost over CHF 80K (asking price). This is pushing the F360 up marginally. The prices for F430 and 458 are depreciating, and I expect them to fall further when people actually start taking delivery of the 488.

If I where in the market today, I would be looking at a 3 pedal (manual) 430 spider - they are almost impossible to find now. I miss the window on the engine bay on the 458 Spider. Also, consider going for a 458 Speciale, they will definitely hold their value over the next 10 to 20 years, and then skyrocket like the 430 scuderia and 360 challenge stradale have done recently.

Having said that, if you go for a V8 mid engine Ferrari then you will not be disappointed. These cars are not like any other car. The driving experience is out of this world. Just make sure you actually drive it - and not let it collect dust in the garage. My Km 20K 360 that I bought in March now has Km 30K on it

After checking autoscout, I think there is really only one red 458 spider priced to sell, and that is this one:
http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/ferra...p%3d10%26r%3d5

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  #155  
Old 06.11.2015, 16:47
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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Also, consider going for a 458 Speciale, they will definitely hold their value over the next 10 to 20 years, and then skyrocket like the 430 scuderia and 360 challenge stradale have done recently.
Here you go -- and at a speciale price, too!

You're welcome.

At that price, it's going to have to do a lot of skyrocketing. PDC and camera are there, so hopefully you won't have to worry too much about maintaining your pristine bumpers.

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After checking autoscout, I think there is really only one red spider priced to sell, and that is this one:
http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/ferra...p%3d10%26r%3d5
Here's a few more around that price point. Remember, you can deduct the MwSt from some of these and save around 10%...
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  #156  
Old 06.11.2015, 16:57
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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Here you go -- and at a speziale price, too!

You're welcome.

At that price, it's going to have to do a lot of skyrocketing. PDC and camera are there, so hopefully you won't have to worry too much about maintaining your pristine bumpers.
I know a guy who bought a new Speciale from Foitek in April, and he paid less than 300K for it. Factory made to his specs.

As for the skyrocketing:
FERRARI F360 Challenge stradale - CHF 400K
http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/ferra...p%3d10%26r%3d5

FERRARI F430 Spider Scuderia M16 - CHF 430K
http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/ferra...p%3d10%26r%3d5
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  #157  
Old 06.11.2015, 17:02
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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I know a guy who bought a new Speciale from Foitek in April, and he paid less than 300K for it.

As for the skyrocketing:
FERRARI F360 Challenge stradale - CHF 400K
http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/ferra...p%3d10%26r%3d5

FERRARI F430 Spider Scuderia M16 - CHF 430K
http://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/ferra...p%3d10%26r%3d5
or in Germany:
FERRARI F360 Challenge stradale - EUR 280K
http://ww3.autoscout24.de/classified...180?asrc=st|as

FERRARI F430 Spider Scuderia M16 -EUR 310k
http://ww3.autoscout24.de/classified...633?asrc=st|as
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  #158  
Old 06.11.2015, 17:13
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

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or in Germany:
FERRARI F360 Challenge stradale - EUR 280K
http://ww3.autoscout24.de/classified...180?asrc=st|as

FERRARI F430 Spider Scuderia M16 -EUR 310k
http://ww3.autoscout24.de/classified...633?asrc=st|as
If you take everything into consideration (mileage, color, extras, etc e.g. rarity) then Ferrari's are slightly cheaper in Switzerland than neighboring countries, not to mention USA.

Only Luxembourg has more Ferrari's per capita than Switzerland, that may have something to do with the "low" price.

When researching last spring, I found the best price was in Russia, but that is just too risky.
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Old 06.11.2015, 17:27
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Re: Recommended cars for sale

So the Recommended Car thread seems to be swinging from CHF 2k 18 year old Volvo 960 or similar, or alternatively, a CHF 280k Ferrari.

I'm calling derailed.
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Old 06.11.2015, 17:28
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So the Recommended Car thread seems to be swinging from CHF 2k 18 year old Volvo 960 or similar, or alternatively, a CHF 280k Ferrari.

I'm calling derailed.
that's EF. the thread could also have changed to smoking, education or dogs by now.
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