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Old 25.07.2017, 10:57
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

One thing to watch out for here, especially in the dark, is that the Swiss like to put zebra crossings on the immediate exits to roundabouts.

Watch out for pedestrians as you leave,. Watch out for other drivers stopping quickly while still on the roundabout.
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  #22  
Old 25.07.2017, 10:58
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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40+ years is relatively new?

Tom

40+ years ago, there were very few roundabouts here, the Swiss favoured more a solution with traffic lights.

Now this has changed and roundabouts are very fashionable, seems like every commune needs at least 2 to go with the radar cameras !
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Old 25.07.2017, 11:43
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

Whilst on this topic, what really pisses me odd about Swiss roundabouts is that drivers are apparently taught NOT to indicate left if they're staying on the roundabout, even if making a 270 degree turn (or more).

This newish one had had me slamming my brakes on more than once soon after it was built as a car comes from Bahnhofstrasse all the way round to exit going North, when I'm approaching from the South. Stupid.


Even the French behaviour of indicating left even if you're going straight on is just confusing, whereas this is downright dangerous for anyone who's used to more logical indicator usage.
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Old 25.07.2017, 11:53
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Whilst on this topic, what really pisses me odd about Swiss roundabouts is that drivers are apparently taught NOT to indicate left if they're staying on the roundabout, even if making a 270 degree turn (or more).
A roundabout is nothing more than a straight road with only right turns that goes in a circle. There is no reason to indicate left while on a straight road.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:13
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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A roundabout is nothing more than a straight road with only right turns that goes in a circle. There is no reason to indicate left while on a straight road.
Yes, yes, of course that's the Swiss logic, but when everywhere else expects or requires left indicating what's the point in doing it differently?
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:14
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Liable to induce hand gestures and horn blowing in other drivers.

No fight, just don't drive please
Such nonsense, this is how you drive on multi-lane roundabouts! (see brown-burgundy line)
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:17
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Yes, yes, of course that's the Swiss logic, but when everywhere else expects or requires left indicating what's the point in doing it differently?
Just assume they are moving left unless they are indicating right.

Of course, in Switzerland nobody bothers indicating right either, so you just end up waiting.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:18
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Yes, yes, of course that's the Swiss logic, but when everywhere else expects or requires left indicating what's the point in doing it differently?
They don't. France, Germany and Belgium don't expect or require it and I am sure there are many other countries that don't either.
They are required to signal their intention to leave the roundabout before they take the exit but no other signal is required. The assumption is that if a car is not indicating the intention to leave the roundabout at the next exit it will continue around the roundabout.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:21
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Whilst on this topic, what really pisses me odd about Swiss roundabouts is that drivers are apparently taught NOT to indicate left if they're staying on the roundabout, even if making a 270 degree turn (or more).
Totally bonkers, pointless, and even dangerous to indicate left.

In a roundabout there are just two possible options. Stays in it or leaves at next exit. If you stay in you DO NOT indicate. If you intend to leave at the next exit you indicate. If you see from the corner of your eye a car indicating you know you can safely enter the roundabout. No need to look and discern if he indicates right or left. Indicating left at most roundabouts does not give any additional information to the other road users as you can not see across them. On the other hand it makes things more complicated as it adds an additional rule and condition. The most basic you can get is: A set blinker means leaving, no blinker means stay. Simple, effective, safe.

So, why do the British indicate right on their roundabouts? This is no mystery but a misery. It comes from two facts: First, that they have no priority from the left. Second, because of that they put mini roundabouts at intersections where, on continental Europe, simple priority from the right is good enough. On such roundabouts, which are more like regular intersections, indicating right makes sense.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:26
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Liable to induce hand gestures and horn blowing in other drivers.

No fight, just don't drive please

Attachment 127469
This picture is highly misleading because the road markings at the exit of the roundabouts are incorrect!!!

For reference, the TCS instructions mentioned earlier include the correct markings

https://www.tcs.ch/fr/auto-deux-roue...giratoires.php
https://www.tcs.ch/de/auto-zweirad/v...ln/kreisel.php
https://www.tcs.ch/it/auto-due-ruote...ne/rotonde.php
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  #31  
Old 25.07.2017, 12:36
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Liable to induce hand gestures and horn blowing in other drivers.

No fight, just don't drive please

Attachment 127469
The roundabout in the figure is unusual in that the road marking indicate that the entire right lane exits. I guess this means you must exit, no matter what.

This also means that the left lane effectively branches into two lanes at that point, so if you change lanes there, you're not cutting anybody off.

I don't think I've ever seen a roundabout with road markings like that.
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  #32  
Old 25.07.2017, 12:38
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Totally bonkers, pointless, and even dangerous to indicate left.

In a roundabout there are just two possible options. Stays in it or leaves at next exit. If you stay in you DO NOT indicate. If you intend to leave at the next exit you indicate. If you see from the corner of your eye a car indicating you know you can safely enter the roundabout. No need to look and discern if he indicates right or left. Indicating left at most roundabouts does not give any additional information to the other road users as you can not see across them. On the other hand it makes things more complicated as it adds an additional rule and condition. The most basic you can get is: A set blinker means leaving, no blinker means stay. Simple, effective, safe.

So, why do the British indicate right on their roundabouts? This is no mystery but a misery. It comes from two facts: First, that they have no priority from the left. Second, because of that they put mini roundabouts at intersections where, on continental Europe, simple priority from the right is good enough. On such roundabouts, which are more like regular intersections, indicating right makes sense.
When you see blinking lights, you can tell whether it is left or right immediately.

Plus you also need to check that both are not blinking to indicate some emergency state. Assuming any kind of blink=leaving is dangerous.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:39
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Totally bonkers, pointless, and even dangerous to indicate left.

In a roundabout there are just two possible options. Stays in it or leaves at next exit. If you stay in you DO NOT indicate. If you intend to leave at the next exit you indicate. If you see from the corner of your eye a car indicating you know you can safely enter the roundabout. No need to look and discern if he indicates right or left. Indicating left at most roundabouts does not give any additional information to the other road users as you can not see across them. On the other hand it makes things more complicated as it adds an additional rule and condition. The most basic you can get is: A set blinker means leaving, no blinker means stay. Simple, effective, safe.

So, why do the British indicate right on their roundabouts? This is no mystery but a misery. It comes from two facts: First, that they have no priority from the left. Second, because of that they put mini roundabouts at intersections where, on continental Europe, simple priority from the right is good enough. On such roundabouts, which are more like regular intersections, indicating right makes sense.
I strongly disagree about signalling left before and in the roundabout.

On a multi-lane roundabout, signalling left in the roundabout is useful to someone that wants to enter the roundabout and take the first exit. He can this way enter on the right lane parallel to the vehicle in the left lane or as long as the vehicle in the roundabout does not change lane.

It would be far more useful to point to official advice (such as from TCS) than to come up with self-made comments and opinions that just create more confusion. The TCS advice clearly says that you can signal before and within the roundabout.
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  #34  
Old 25.07.2017, 12:46
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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This picture is highly misleading because the road markings at the exit of the roundabouts are incorrect!!!

For reference, the TCS instructions mentioned earlier include the correct markings

https://www.tcs.ch/fr/auto-deux-roue...giratoires.php
https://www.tcs.ch/de/auto-zweirad/v...ln/kreisel.php
https://www.tcs.ch/it/auto-due-ruote...ne/rotonde.php
Look carefully and you'll see I flipped a UK image. The writing is backwards.

It was for arrows, not road art. I could not find a relevant Swiss one easily.
The TCS ones are not representative of road marking either (as per post 23)
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:46
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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The TCS advice clearly says that you can signal before and within the roundabout.
The also clearly state that it is not required, and that only signalling when leaving is legally required.

Tom
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:50
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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So, why do the British indicate right on their roundabouts? This is no mystery but a misery. It comes from two facts: First, that they have no priority from the left. Second, because of that they put mini roundabouts at intersections where, on continental Europe, simple priority from the right is good enough. On such roundabouts, which are more like regular intersections, indicating right makes sense.
Whereas to the vast majority of Brits the priority to the right rule is completely bonkers.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:54
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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I strongly disagree about signalling left before and in the roundabout.

On a multi-lane roundabout, signalling left in the roundabout is useful to someone that wants to enter the roundabout and take the first exit. He can this way enter on the right lane parallel to the vehicle in the left lane or as long as the vehicle in the roundabout does not change lane.

It would be far more useful to point to official advice (such as from TCS) than to come up with self-made comments and opinions that just create more confusion. The TCS advice clearly says that you can signal before and within the roundabout.
I agree that signalling staying on the roundabout is useful, esp. for multi-lane ones.

However, in practice people are so bad at signalling of any sort on a roundabout, I wouldn't be inclined to trust the signals. I look forward to automatic cars replacing drivers.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:55
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

My typical experience when using the left lane on a two-lane round-about is that the cars frequently enter on the right lane not letting me leave the left lane directly at my exit. I often have to stop fully indicating a right turn and waiting until the right lane is free. These are not the cars that entered the round-about on some previous entry, but at the one just before my exit.

My tactics is to change to the right lane before the previous exit so that they cannot enter on the right lane blocking me from exiting.
It is hard to watch for cars in right rear mirror when doing a left turn - they're often in its blind spot.
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:57
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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Such nonsense, this is how you drive on multi-lane roundabouts! (see brown-burgundy line)
so it was you?
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Old 25.07.2017, 12:57
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Re: The best way to drive multi-lane roundabouts

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On a multi-lane roundabout, signalling left in the roundabout is useful to someone that wants to enter the roundabout and take the first exit. He can this way enter on the right lane parallel to the vehicle in the left lane or as long as the vehicle in the roundabout does not change lane.
The problem with that? Anyone IN the roundabout has full priority over anyone not in the roundabout. The guy on the left lane can stop indicating and change lane any time. Worst just before you enter the roundabout. If a crash happens it is the fault of the person entering the roundabout.

Additionally indicating left does not give additional information over not indicating. The message to others is still the same: Does not leave the roundabout, does not change lane.

Here the official rules:
Art. 41b VRV https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a41b
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2 Bei der Einfahrt in den Kreisverkehrsplatz und, sofern kein Fahrstreifenwechsel erfolgt, bei der Fahrt im Kreis muss der Führer die Richtung nicht anzeigen. Das Verlassen des Kreises muss angezeigt werden.
Entering a roundabout and while driving in a roundabout w/o changing lanes no indication is needed. The leaving of the roundabout must be indicated.
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