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  #121  
Old 11.08.2017, 19:32
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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Crossed 50 means "50 limit no longer applies"; the limit could then be 80, 100 or 120 depending on the road classification.
80 or 120 (=unlikely ) but not 100. If it's 100 it is indicated.

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As a cyclist I sometimes put my left arm out to make things it clear that I am 'going in' and not turning right straight away. I want to ensure that the car behind me doesn't try to overtake me on the left and then turn right (leave the roundabout) in front of my front wheel.
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I do the same thing but it doesn't stop some smart Alec occasionally thinking there is room to pass me.
It is illegal to pass a cycle within the roundabout. Block them off completely so even the dummies don't have a chance to pass you by!
As maypril wrote, move to the middle before entering and just stay there until you want to exit (which of course you shall indicate).

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I don't get your first point - it equally applies to almost any junction unless you decide to park on the give way line for a bit.

Indicating right before you join does make sense because it tells drivers they don't need to wait for you - if every person joining a roundabout is indicating right, in theory they can all use it simulataneously without problem.

Effectively you've already passed the "previous" exit (i.e. the one you're coming in from).
Yes, your example does make good sense (specially in the small roundabouts we have here). But indicating left when entering it doesn't - which was my first point.
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  #122  
Old 12.08.2017, 00:55
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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Yes, your example does make good sense (specially in the small roundabouts we have here). But indicating left when entering it doesn't - which was my first point.
I taught 3 girls to drive here in Switzerland since 2013, each already had several lessons with Swiss driving schools, none had been taught to signal left when approaching a roundabout with the intent to either turn left (take 3rd exit) or go full circle (take the 4th exit). I taught them all, with explanations on the benefits and reasons behind indicating left. They all drove in that manner on their driving test, and all 3 past non problem.


As previously explained, a driving instructor here agrees that for road safety reasons, it should be, and most likely will be included in the future and modelled on the British way.


When you leave one road to enter another, by right you should always indicate to do so. When turning from one road to another, you are doing so at a junction. What is a junction? It is a point where 2 or more roads meet. A roundabout is a road junction, and so by rights, you are required to indicate as you would at any other more minor junction.


It really is that simple.


Another thing, for those who of you who do not signal when turning left or going full circle on a roundabout. I can money back guarantee you this, if you do try it out you will experience far less sweaty arsed moments when "some idiot" just pulls out onto the roundabout in front of you. have you ever asked yourself why the driver did this? Do you think it just may be because he was not aware of your intention to actually turn left on the roundabout and therefore come across their front? Do you not even consider for one millisecond that had you perhaps signalled left, the other driver on understanding your intention would actually decide they should wait till it is clear for them to come onto the roundabout.


I, as a UK driving instructor, signal left...always, does not matter whether it is in Switzerland, Spain, Hungary or the US, and I can tell you now, in all the years I have done so I have almost never had anyone dive out in front of me...bar of course the odd boy racer who thinks he is god of the road.


Driving is all about being safe, and basic bloody common sense as well.
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  #123  
Old 12.08.2017, 01:47
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

Ah, the roundabout-driving topic. I was getting worried as it's at least 2 weeks since we last had a fight about this.

In fact, the previous thread was quite illuminating as someone explained that according to the Swiss system, 'a roundabout is just a straight road that goes in a circle'. And because the roundabout is... actually... a straight road, there is therefore 'no reason to indicate left'. I thought that was a fantastic explanation. Yes, just imagine the roundabout doesn't exist. Just pretend it's a straight road.

While you're at it, why not just pretend that other car drivers, pedestrians and other road users don't exist either? Because indicating your intentions when you enter a roundabout is a courtesy to THEM. It's not just a matter of convenience to the driver who is imagining that this roundabout doesn't really exist.

Driving in Switzerland, I do not indicate left because I've been told here that it's stupid and wrong. But I hate deliberately driving discourteously like this. The Swiss mindset may be that a roundabout is a straight road, but for most other people, the great majority of Swiss roundabouts are not straight roads but small crossroads, with 4 possible exit points. At a normal small crossroads, you would indicate right or left as appropriate, or not at all if you were going straight across. I've no idea why such a simple idea does not apply to Swiss crossroads, but there we are.

Don't criticise me for breaking the Swiss rule, because I don't break the Swiss rule. I think it's illogical, discourteous and dangerous, but I obey it.
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  #124  
Old 12.08.2017, 02:41
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

If you approach a roundabout, you blink right if you intend to take the first exit. If not, you don't blink. Once you passed the first exit, you blink right if you want to take the second, or once you passed the second, you blink if you want to the the third, and so on.

If you blink left while entering a roundabout, or actually INSTRUCT others to do so, you should immediately give up your driving license.
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  #125  
Old 12.08.2017, 04:40
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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It is illegal to pass a cycle within the roundabout. Block them off completely so even the dummies don't have a chance to pass you by!
As maypril wrote, move to the middle before entering and just stay there until you want to exit (which of course you shall indicate).
Being illegal doesn't stop people trying to do it. Cars are bigger and heavier than I am on my bike. I'd prefer to show them clearly where I am going rather than try to 'block them off'. What do the Brits say? It is possible to be dead right! If one day I get fined for signalling left, I shall cheerfully pay up.
Same as when I ride on the pavement up the Hirzel occasionally. I know what the law says but I have never, ever seen anyone walking on that stretch of path and the lorries grinding uphill behind me coupled with cars who try to overtake me easing me gently towards the 'gutter' if I stick to my correct place on the road are scarier than a fine.
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  #126  
Old 12.08.2017, 09:22
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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Don't criticise me for breaking the Swiss rule, because I don't break the Swiss rule. I think it's illogical, discourteous and dangerous, but I obey it.
It might be illogical to you, but it is not to anybody who learned how to drive here (or in a lot of other countries in Europe). By the way, there is nothing illegal or "against the rules" with indicating first left and then right in CH. So if you feel safer just go ahead and do it.

What I don't understand in this this discussion is that from a logical point of view the two systems are identical.

In one system you indicate that you will stay in the roundabout by signaling left in the other system you indicate that you will stay in the roundabout by not signaling. However, in both systems you have to signal when you leave the roundabout.

So, why do problems occur? They occur when somebody decides not to indicate right when they want to exit the roundabout. So I would like to repeat myself:

what makes people believe that the portion of drivers who now do not indicate once when leaving the roundabout will indicate twice, if the system would change?

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have you ever asked yourself why the driver did this? Do you think it just may be because he was not aware of your intention to actually turn left on the roundabout and therefore come across their front? Do you not even consider for one millisecond that had you perhaps signalled left, the other driver on understanding your intention would actually decide they should wait till it is clear for them to come onto the roundabout.
No, my intentions are clear. If I do not signal I will stay in the roundabout.
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  #127  
Old 12.08.2017, 11:09
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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By the way, there is nothing illegal or "against the rules" with indicating first left and then right in CH. So if you feel safer just go ahead and do it.

Correct, and as stated, the 3 I taught passed their driving test here, had it been an illegal thing to do they would have failed.


And again, the Swiss driving instructor I spoke with believes it would be a positive addition to Swiss driving regulations and understands the safety aspect behind the rule to indicate your intention to turn left.


By indicating left all one is in fact doing is adding an extra level of road safety to an existing rule where many vehicles converge, thereby decreasing the chance of a shunt.


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No, my intentions are clear. If I do not signal I will stay in the roundabout.
I understand that your intentions are clear to yourself by not indicating, but that's where it stops. Revert back to driving 101, why is one taught to use their indicators? To signal to other road users your intentions. Unless other road users are mind readers they will play a guessing game.


when I indicate left on a roundabout here I am clearly informing my intentions to other road users, they certainly understand and correctly hold back.


I would like to know how Swiss and other drivers who are taught not to indicate, approach and treat a roundabout when visiting the UK? Because I'll tell you this, what we have here in Switzerland are piddly little things in comparison to many of the UK ones, when you get confronted by a large roundabout surrounded by 6 mini roundabouts, trust me, you will want to signal your intentions.


Finally, and as I do not know, what are the Swiss rules for cyclists wanting to turn left on a roundabout, do they need to arm-signal at all?
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  #128  
Old 12.08.2017, 11:23
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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Driving in Switzerland, I do not indicate left because I've been told here that it's stupid and wrong. But I hate deliberately driving discourteously like this. The Swiss mindset may be that a roundabout is a straight road, but for most other people, the great majority of Swiss roundabouts are not straight roads but small crossroads, with 4 possible exit points. At a normal small crossroads, you would indicate right or left as appropriate, or not at all if you were going straight across. I've no idea why such a simple idea does not apply to Swiss crossroads, but there we are.

Don't criticise me for breaking the Swiss rule, because I don't break the Swiss rule. I think it's illogical, discourteous and dangerous, but I obey it.
Well I am Swiss, and if I think the UK system is better, safer and more courteous- I'll use it as it does not put anyone in danger or cause confusion- and many many drivers give a little raised hand thank you when I do- win win. This particularly at the roundabout I mentioned yesterday- where one end of the roundabout is on steep hill, and 3rd entrance goes to a hamlet where very few cars go- so it is just courtesy and makes traffic flow better.

Same at a roundabout at the entrance to our French town, where I often have to take third exit to come back on same road (1 way) - so people coming in from my second exit, which is the main throughfare, know that I am coming all the way round. You can't expect all the main traffic to wait like puddings just in case 1 car out of a 100 will go all the way round past them! Daft.

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  #129  
Old 12.08.2017, 11:27
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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Finally, and as I do not know, what are the Swiss rules for cyclists wanting to turn left on a roundabout, do they need to arm-signal at all?
In Switzerland cyclists have absolute priority on a roundabout, and must be approached with great care. Cars are not permitted to overtake cyclists in a roundabout. Cyclists are permitted to enter in the right lane, move to the left lane and then back to the right lane, with only a right signal to leave the roundabout.

I will leave it to Swiss_in_Us to give us the exact laws. And at some time this year I read that it is no longer illegal to signal left in a roundabout, it is now permitted but not yet compulsory.
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  #130  
Old 12.08.2017, 12:22
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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I understand that your intentions are clear to yourself by not indicating, but that's where it stops. Revert back to driving 101, why is one taught to use their indicators? To signal to other road users your intentions. Unless other road users are mind readers they will play a guessing game.
No this is simply not true and it baffles me that a driving instructor would say something like this. The other road users don't need to read my mind. They simply need to remember the rules, which are: 1. no signal = stay in roundabout, 2. signal right = leave the roundabout.

If somebody feels like playing a guessing game when somebody doesn't indicate in a roundabout, then I'd suggest that they stop driving and go back to read the rules.

edit: now as I re-red my reply, it looks a bit rude and aggressive. my apologies. I'm just honestly amazed and confused about the situation.

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  #131  
Old 12.08.2017, 12:53
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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I understand that your intentions are clear to yourself by not indicating, but that's where it stops. Revert back to driving 101, why is one taught to use their indicators? To signal to other road users your intentions. Unless other road users are mind readers they will play a guessing game.
You are looking at it from a UK perspective.

To everybody else who has learned to drive outside the UK it is totally clear that unless a driver is indicating their intention to leave the roundabout at the next exit they will be continuing around the roundabout.

It only really becomes annoying when people don't signal their intention to leave which they are legally obliged to do here.
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  #132  
Old 12.08.2017, 13:06
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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It only really becomes annoying when people don't signal their intention to leave
Correct. And this is true for both systems.
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  #133  
Old 12.08.2017, 13:23
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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I understand that your intentions are clear to yourself by not indicating, but that's where it stops. Revert back to driving 101, why is one taught to use their indicators? To signal to other road users your intentions. Unless other road users are mind readers they will play a guessing game.
You are looking at it from a UK perspective.

To everybody else who has learned to drive outside the UK it is totally clear that unless a driver is indicating their intention to leave the roundabout at the next exit they will be continuing around the roundabout.
As I said in the previous discussion, indicating is all about giving information about your intentions to other road users. Given the number of foreigners in CH it's by no means safe to assume that everyone will be sticking to the somewhat arbitrary rules they impose here, nor that they will understand them. So if, by clearly indicating my intention to remain on the roundabout, I can give advance notice to a possibly confused foreigner, which allows them to slow down early and refuses the risk that they may need to panic-brake when they finally realise, if even fail to do so and cause an accident, why would I cosy NOT to do so?

It's not as if there is any possible down-side to it - nobody's going to misread your left indicator as anything other than an intention to continue going round the roundabout.

Oh, and I recall that you disagreed with my previous post about French roundabout indicator conventions - let me assure you that they are indeed taught to signal left even if they're going 'straight on'. Sometimes they fail to indicate right to exit as well. So what's going to happen if you encounter a Swiss-newbie French driver approaching the roundabout you're circumnavigating when they assume that lack of left indication means you're leaving the roundabout? The ensuing accident may have been their 'fault', but personally I'd prefer to have avoided it if possible.
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  #134  
Old 12.08.2017, 13:28
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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In fact, the previous thread was quite illuminating as someone explained that according to the Swiss system, 'a roundabout is just a straight road that goes in a circle'. And because the roundabout is... actually... a straight road, there is therefore 'no reason to indicate left'. I thought that was a fantastic explanation. Yes, just imagine the roundabout doesn't exist. Just pretend it's a straight road.
No reason to pretend, it is in fact a straight road given a large enough diameter.

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  #135  
Old 12.08.2017, 13:53
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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So what's going to happen if you encounter a Swiss-newbie French driver approaching the roundabout you're circumnavigating when they assume that lack of left indication means you're leaving the roundabout? The ensuing accident may have been their 'fault', but personally I'd prefer to have avoided it if possible.
Which system do the French follow? "UK" or "CH"?

Let's break this down:

1. In the "CH system" if a car in the roundabout doesn't indicate, the car approaching the roundabout has to wait.

2. In the "UK system" if a car in the roundabout by mistake doesn't indicate, the car approaching the roundabout has to wait (I assume that's what drivers will do in UK). If the car does indicate (to stay in the roundabout), the approaching car still has to wait.

3. In both systems you have to indicate when you exit.

So, regardless of the system the French driver knows that he will have to wait if the car in the roundabout doesn't indicate.
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  #136  
Old 12.08.2017, 18:21
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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Being illegal doesn't stop people trying to do it. Cars are bigger and heavier than I am on my bike. I'd prefer to show them clearly where I am going rather than try to 'block them off'. What do the Brits say? It is possible to be dead right! If one day I get fined for signalling left, I shall cheerfully pay up.
Same as when I ride on the pavement up the Hirzel occasionally. I know what the law says but I have never, ever seen anyone walking on that stretch of path and the lorries grinding uphill behind me coupled with cars who try to overtake me easing me gently towards the 'gutter' if I stick to my correct place on the road are scarier than a fine.
I understand if you don't want to "block them off" by riding in the middle of the lane while in the roundabout. But - as it is illegal for a car to pass you while in there - you would remind him of that.
As a cyclist you can't signal enough, I agree. I usually already take the hint that they're up to something, when the cyclists start looking back over their shoulders
You cycle up the Hirzel? Chapeau!
I also often use the pavement when on the bicycle, I don't trust any bike trails that are not separated from cars by a tire-killing landing
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Old 12.08.2017, 18:32
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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Which system do the French follow? "UK" or "CH"?
Neither, as I explained.

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So, regardless of the system the French driver knows that he will have to wait if the car in the roundabout doesn't indicate.
Did you actually read what I wrote? Regardless of who SHOULD do what, according to the rules, it's normal practice for a French driver to indicate left to show that he's NOT leaving at the next exit. It's also common for them to fail to indicate right when they do want to exit.

In any case, I just don't understand why so many people are arguing this point - additional indicating MAY be of some benefit to other road users, to ensure that they're crystal clear of your intentions. There is no downside to it, no possible confusion can occur, so why are you so insistent that people should not do so?

You seem to base your argument simply on the fact that if everybody, Swiss or otherwise, knows and follows the Swiss rules exactly, in all situations (yeah, that a realistic expectation, right? ) then additional indication, not specified as required (but not forbidden either) SHOULD not be needed, but never once explain why you think that it could possibly be a bad thing.

Oh, by the way, the UK system states that you should indicate right if you're going anything further round than the straight ahead road, so yes, you can normally assume on approach that a non-indicating car coming towards you from the other side of the roundabout will not be crossing your path, and that therefore you can expect to be safe to enter the roundabout, further checks notwithstanding.
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Last edited by Ace1; 12.08.2017 at 19:30.
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Old 12.08.2017, 19:03
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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It only really becomes annoying when people don't signal their intention to leave which they are legally obliged to do here.
Well you know the roundabout at the entrance to Pontarlier, with the face statue in the middle. 1st exit, straight on into town (perhaps 10% of traffic), 2nd exit, town by-pass to shopping area and Besançon, perhaps 85% of traffic, 3rd exit, to turn back and go away from town, towards castle and Vallorbe- perhaps 5% or less of traffic - often me as I go to Contact supermarket, and it is one way and I am not allowed to turn left... so should 85% of very busy traffic wait everytime until the 5% signal at last minute (which they have to, as 1st exit is so close), just in case they do not exit at 1st or 2nd?

Indicating left as I approach tells everyone what I am going to do, then indicating right once past 2nd exit- so so simple.
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  #139  
Old 12.08.2017, 19:11
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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You seem to base your argument simply on the fact that if everybody, Swiss or otherwise, knows and follows the Swiss rules exactly, in all situations (yeah, that a realistic expectation, right? ) then additional indication, not specified as required (but not forbidden either) SHOULD not be needed, but never once explain why you think that it could possibly be a bad thing.
I explained it do you in the past: It blinks it leaves, it does not blink it stays.

If "I" (a hypothetical I) sees, from the corner of the eye, that the car in the roundabout or waiting at the previous entry blinks "I" know it is safe to enter the round about. No need to look or make sure if it is right or left, just simple and easy: blinks - leaves.
In the end there are only these two information needed for any roundabout user: It stays in or it leaves.

I also said in the past that I know and understand where the British right blinking comes from: From tiny pseudo roundabouts which actually would be better priority from the right intersections and not roundabouts at all. A roundabout where a truck, lorry or coach can not make a U-Turn and has nor real middle as they couldn't even do a right turn (British road system) should not be a roundabout at all. They are a travesty and more like intersections with weird traffic rules than roundabouts in the first place.
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  #140  
Old 12.08.2017, 19:29
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Re: Hello! How do you feel about driving in Switzerland?

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I explained it do you in the past: It blinks it leaves, it does not blink it stays.

If "I" (a hypothetical I) sees, from the corner of the eye, that the car in the roundabout or waiting at the previous entry blinks "I" know it is safe to enter the round about. No need to look or make sure if it is right or left, just simple and easy: blinks - leaves.
Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. A random blinking orange light, which you can't clearly determine, could mean anything at all, or nothing. Only if you can see the vehicle to which is attached could you gain any information from it, and if you can see the car you can see which indicator is flashing, without any conscious effort.
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