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  #101  
Old 13.06.2018, 17:47
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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It's not the fact that people drive cars here it's just that the majority feel the need to drive models with massive engines.

Perhaps a Swiss person can explain this need?
Because we can.

OK, I'm not (yet) Swiss but this is one of the things I like about the country. Although I confess that one of ours is only 2.0 litres, so not exactly massive. But averaging 2.7 litres isn't a bad effort, so hopefully they won't reject our nationality application on that basis.
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  #102  
Old 13.06.2018, 17:56
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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edit, guy above answered although the 100MW seems excessive / maybe 1?
A Formula 1 car is about 1 MW. You ain't gonna fly a jumbo on that. 100 MW is, anyway, probably an underestimate for takeoff power but about right for cruise. (Not much room on a fag packet, so I didn't drill down into the full details.)

This paper indicate an A380 produces 240 MW at takeoff and 50 MW in cruise.

Last edited by speakeron; 13.06.2018 at 18:02. Reason: Power output is probably for the whole plane rather than each engine.
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  #103  
Old 13.06.2018, 18:21
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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I'm surprised none of you have realised things are going to have to change. No more flying so have to use ships with sails to move around the world since planes and ships pollute more than all the cars in the world do. Why are you all not complaining about them?


Ships don't have to pollute as much as they do today. They do so because the high seas are not regulated the way our cars are. That's why most large ships don't run on diesel but heavy oil, essentially a trash product from refining petrol. That stuff is dirty from the start and then burnt in essentially a bad diesel engine.


If money wasn't the number one concern is it absolutely possible to cut fuel consumption by a quarter and emissions in half with the tech we already have today. Hurtigruten, the Norwegian cruise company, is launching some hybrid electric ships this and the following years so this isn't theory. But they offer expensive luxury trips and their customers are willing to pay the price. If we all would get the bill for clear shipping would we have to stop ordering cheap stuff made in China...


Long story short: ships should be by far the cheapest and environmentally friendliest way to move cargo. If it isn't, as today, this has other reasons than the point that its on water instead of a road. It would take an international body that includes all the banana republics under which flags ocean going vessels typically travel to join for a change... and that's not going to happen.
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  #104  
Old 13.06.2018, 18:23
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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A Formula 1 car is about 1 MW. You ain't gonna fly a jumbo on that. 100 MW is, anyway, probably an underestimate for takeoff power but about right for cruise. (Not much room on a fag packet, so I didn't drill down into the full details.)

This paper indicate an A380 produces 240 MW at takeoff and 50 MW in cruise.
We could always go back to Zeppelins with some electric engines. Slower but highly energy efficient.
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  #105  
Old 13.06.2018, 18:34
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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Ships don't have to pollute as much as they do today. They do so because the high seas are not regulated the way our cars are. That's why most large ships don't run on diesel but heavy oil, essentially a trash product from refining petrol. That stuff is dirty from the start and then burnt in essentially a bad diesel engine.


If money wasn't the number one concern is it absolutely possible to cut fuel consumption by a quarter and emissions in half with the tech we already have today. Hurtigruten, the Norwegian cruise company, is launching some hybrid electric ships this and the following years so this isn't theory. But they offer expensive luxury trips and their customers are willing to pay the price. If we all would get the bill for clear shipping would we have to stop ordering cheap stuff made in China...


Long story short: ships should be by far the cheapest and environmentally friendliest way to move cargo. If it isn't, as today, this has other reasons than the point that its on water instead of a road. It would take an international body that includes all the banana republics under which flags ocean going vessels typically travel to join for a change... and that's not going to happen.
FYI, there will be a change coming for ships in 2020: https://www.ft.com/content/d0ae63c4-...9-9f94ee97d996
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  #106  
Old 13.06.2018, 18:44
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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Because we can.

OK, I'm not (yet) Swiss but this is one of the things I like about the country. Although I confess that one of ours is only 2.0 litres, so not exactly massive. But averaging 2.7 litres isn't a bad effort, so hopefully they won't reject our nationality application on that basis.
A much better answer than St1leman's answer.

What can I say if he thinks the average joe in the street thinks what he wrote:

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A normally aspirated ICE will lose about 10% power for each 1000m increase in elevation, so passing a tour bus on an alpine pass at 2500m takes 25% more power than at sea level (plus even more when doing it uphill)
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  #107  
Old 13.06.2018, 18:46
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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FYI, there will be a change coming for ships in 2020: https://www.ft.com/content/d0ae63c4-...9-9f94ee97d996
Its a paywall, but I assume the article will be about the 0.5% sulfur law. That's nowhere near the sort of laws we see forced on car manufacturers. It means that the ships will run unchanged engines with slightly less toxic fuel. They don't even need to fit a scrubber, a pretty basic exhaust cleaning device, to meet that law.


Fun fact: a vacation on an average cruise ship will make you breathe worse air than the smog of most major cities...
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  #108  
Old 14.06.2018, 10:49
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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Long story short: ships should be by far the cheapest and environmentally friendliest way to move cargo.
Have you also taken the time-money relationship (and its consequences) here?
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  #109  
Old 14.06.2018, 11:02
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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Have you also taken the time-money relationship (and its consequences) here?
I was talking about the base price and carbon emissions of moving 1 ton of goods per km. If these goods happen to be people who want to go from London to New York in the fastest way possible will there be a different discussion.
But there is a reason why everything made in China is coming in containers on ships and not via the train line across Asia. The Chinese are building up that train line in order to make faster, more predictable deliveries of specific goods... but not to make transport cheaper or more environmentally friendly.
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  #110  
Old 14.06.2018, 17:41
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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  #111  
Old 14.06.2018, 18:50
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

...and this is pelikan after the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico:

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  #112  
Old 15.06.2018, 12:11
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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Now that is bullshit and nothing else. This is what an oil sand tar pit in Alberta looks like:





I am not some hippy, I drive a far too big V8... but I like to be honest about stuff: I believe we will need all the oil we can find till the renewables are up to speed. However, if we somehow manage to should we limit ourselves to the oil and gas that is easier to extract than the oil sands and especially the fracking in the US. They are screwing up their environment on an unparalleled scale. The effort to get the fuel out of the sands is just an environmental nightmare.
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  #113  
Old 15.06.2018, 12:41
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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Now that is bullshit and nothing else. This is what an oil sand tar pit in Alberta looks like:





I am not some hippy, I drive a far too big V8... but I like to be honest about stuff: I believe we will need all the oil we can find till the renewables are up to speed. However, if we somehow manage to should we limit ourselves to the oil and gas that is easier to extract than the oil sands and especially the fracking in the US. They are screwing up their environment on an unparalleled scale. The effort to get the fuel out of the sands is just an environmental nightmare.
Proves the point, the Hubbert curve for peak oil is still valid, we are scraping the bottom of the barrel as predicted.
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  #114  
Old 15.06.2018, 12:45
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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That's not an oil sand pit. That's a fracking borehole. A different thing altogether.
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  #115  
Old 15.06.2018, 13:03
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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That's not an oil sand pit. That's a fracking borehole. A different thing altogether.
he might be wrong, but there's no need for such language!
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  #116  
Old 15.06.2018, 13:12
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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he might be wrong, but there's no need for such language!
Which reminds me of this story that has been doing the rounds, about a guy who wrote a dissertation on geology and wrote about all the boreholes he had been to to obtain samples. But autocorrect changed all those boreholes into brothels. The examination commitee had a field day giggling about it.

Si non e vero and all that.
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  #117  
Old 16.06.2018, 10:47
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

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I had never heard of that term before this thread. I assumed someone made it up.
Never heard of Dino Oil!

Where you've been?

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  #118  
Old 19.06.2018, 12:59
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Re: Electric cars and dinosaur oil

Oil producers face their ‘life or death’ question

https://www.ft.com/content/a41df112-...3-6c13e5c92914
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