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  #41  
Old 30.09.2017, 14:55
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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What evidence do you have that self driving cars would reduce accidents by several orders of magnitude?

Certainly self driving cars are more likely to obey traffic laws and will not be under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

On the other hand there is the possibility of a whole new class of risks like chip failure, malicious hacking, viruses or the cars simply getting into situations which are outside the parameters of their control programmes or others I have not thought of.....
There's no direct evidence at the moment and this discussion was really started by the rhetorical question: "how will speeding fine revenue be replaced when self-driving cars are commonplace and always obey traffic laws".

There's some evidence that automation has helped to reduce airplane accidents and the injury count of the Swiss railway (about 50 per year excluding suicides (between 2 and 3 orders of magnitude lower than cars)) indicate that the greater repeatability of the behaviour of automated cars could lead to a similar figure.

The failure modes you mention are all possible, but none are problems which can't be solved or at least ameliorated with some sensible design decisions (remote hacking isn't inevitable and is usually the result of shortcuts taken by the designers) and the avoidance of using the cheapest programmers (shortcuts taken by the implementers).
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  #42  
Old 30.09.2017, 15:01
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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What evidence do you have that self driving cars would reduce accidents by several orders of magnitude?

Certainly self driving cars are more likely to obey traffic laws and will not be under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

On the other hand there is the possibility of a whole new class of risks like chip failure, malicious hacking, viruses or the cars simply getting into situations which are outside the parameters of their control programmes or others I have not thought of.....
90% of accidents in the UK are as a result of driver error. (http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/20...ehicle-crashes).

So remove the driver and reduce accidents to 10% of today’s level - less of course a small amount off for “chip failure”, hacking etc.
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  #43  
Old 30.09.2017, 15:49
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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90% of accidents in the UK are as a result of driver error. (http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/20...ehicle-crashes).

So remove the driver and reduce accidents to 10% of today’s level - less of course a small amount off for “chip failure”, hacking etc.
One example given in your link is "The critical reason for this event was assigned to this driver as a driver-related decision factor, “turned with obstructed view". The view of the other vehicle was blocked by the truck and the Toyota driver made a false assumption that it was clear to make her turn not realizing the other vehicle was behind the truck. "

How would a self drive vehicle recognise "the other vehicle was behind the truck?
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  #44  
Old 30.09.2017, 16:09
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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One example given in your link is "The critical reason for this event was assigned to this driver as a driver-related decision factor, “turned with obstructed view". The view of the other vehicle was blocked by the truck and the Toyota driver made a false assumption that it was clear to make her turn not realizing the other vehicle was behind the truck. "

How would a self drive vehicle recognise "the other vehicle was behind the truck?
Could be one of:

1) It wouldn't have made the turn while the view was obstructed by a large object (i.e. it's more cautious).

2) Better sensors; maybe integrated with other vehicles (each doing a position broadcast on a common bus) or with fixed infrastructure.

3) We except that some accidents will still happen, but the overall rate is lower.
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  #45  
Old 30.09.2017, 16:20
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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Could be one of:

1) It wouldn't have made the turn while the view was obstructed by a large object (i.e. it's more cautious).

2) Better sensors; maybe integrated with other vehicles (each doing a position broadcast on a common bus) or with fixed infrastructure.

3) We except that some accidents will still happen, but the overall rate is lower.
And all vehicles would ‘talk’ to each other and be aware of the position of all vehicles around them, whether seen or not by humans...
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  #46  
Old 30.09.2017, 16:32
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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90% of accidents in the UK are as a result of driver error. (http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/20...ehicle-crashes).

So remove the driver and reduce accidents to 10% of today’s level - less of course a small amount off for “chip failure”, hacking etc.
One example given in your link is "The critical reason for this event was assigned to this driver as a driver-related decision factor [...]
Where in AbFab links does it say anything about a truck or Toyota?
It cites and links (some links are broken) to a handful of studies, but in which of those many is your situation described?
Edit: NHTS National Motor Vehicle Crash Causation Survey (2008), DOT HS 811 059, https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api...ication/811059


So I cannot answer your question. But maybe observing the rule "Able to stop within visible distance, and able to stop within half of the visible distance if there is not enough room passing oncoming traffic." (which is the law btw.) may have prevented it.
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  #47  
Old 30.09.2017, 16:48
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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I've exceeded the (30kph) limit on a bicycle....where do I report myself?
Thanks to you they will bring back number plates on bicycles!

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There is the law of diminishing returns. The road fatality rate in Switzerland is 4.7 per 100,000 motor vehicles, quite literally one of the lowest in the world. Compare that with:
- 19 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles in Europe
- 53.4 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles for Russia
- 104.5 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles for China
- 130.1 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles for India
- 574 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles in Africa
- 9462.5 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles in Guinea

You get the point. A decrease of several orders of magnitude may simply not be possible in a place where it is already one of the lowest in the entire world.
Something wrong with your list. There are only 574 deaths in Africa (when did Africa become a country?) but 9462.5 in Guinea, which last time I talked to friends from there is an African country ....
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  #48  
Old 30.09.2017, 17:01
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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Something wrong with your list. There are only 574 deaths in Africa (when did Africa become a country?) but 9462.5 in Guinea, which last time I talked to friends from there is an African country ....
Deaths per vehicle
Maybe there are only eleven cars in Guinea and one person died because of an accident. (It is closer to 34000 cars and 3200 traffic deaths).

http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A995
http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A997


PS: .5 That is more accurate than the underlying numbers.
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  #49  
Old 30.09.2017, 18:23
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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And all vehicles would ‘talk’ to each other and be aware of the position of all vehicles around them, whether seen or not by humans...
Of course, especially my old classic car
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  #50  
Old 30.09.2017, 19:08
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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Deaths per vehicle
Maybe there are only eleven cars in Guinea and one person died because of an accident. (It is closer to 34000 cars and 3200 traffic deaths).

http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A995
http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A997


PS: .5 That is more accurate than the underlying numbers.
If this is the correct explanation the statistics is for the bin.
Okay, which isn't ....

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And all vehicles would ‘talk’ to each other and be aware of the position of all vehicles around them, whether seen or not by humans...
That's gonna be fun. Expat cars all over the world which - guess what - don't speak the local language. ROFL.
There no doubt will be android cars, apple cars, windows cars .... oh joy!
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  #51  
Old 30.09.2017, 20:05
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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90% of accidents in the UK are as a result of driver error. (http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/20...ehicle-crashes).

So remove the driver and reduce accidents to 10% of today’s level - less of course a small amount off for “chip failure”, hacking etc.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...-discover.html
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  #52  
Old 30.09.2017, 20:13
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

OTOH that IS the Daily mail.
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  #53  
Old 30.09.2017, 20:16
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

What's your point?
It's die Software, so self-driving cars won't work?
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  #54  
Old 01.10.2017, 00:55
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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Similarly, the drivers subscribing to this service are intending to break the law (otherwise, why subscribe?), but are informed where not to do it so they don't get caught.
Objection - speculation!

I would subscribe to know where it's dangerous to speed, and be extra careful. That's why we have cameras, right?



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Accidents with injured persons just for cars was 10711 of which 1402 were severe. What do you think the lifetime costs are of those? What about three orders of magnitude less (11)? Even if we didn't care about the costs, I'm sure all those people would be quite grateful not to be injured.
of which how many were caused by speeding?
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  #55  
Old 01.10.2017, 09:59
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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I would subscribe to know where it's dangerous to speed, and be extra careful. That's why we have cameras, right?
I would suggest that someone like you with your apparently limited road knowledge and skills shouldn't really be on the road.

Generally speed camera, in my experience, are placed at accident blackspots - road works, blind corners , tunnels etc and also where there is a great danger from speeding to other people - such as near pedestrian crossings.

Do you need a third-party app to tell you not to speed in these places?

Why not just not speed at all?
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  #56  
Old 01.10.2017, 10:59
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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I would subscribe to know where it's dangerous to speed, and be extra careful.
Why not just always be extra careful?

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of which how many were caused by speeding?
It's in the report I linked to: 4928 plus 118 fatalities. (Although that's spread over all types of injuries and fatalities (cars, motobikes, bicycles, pedestrians and others) of which total injuries and fatalities are 26077 - I think we can assume that speeding bicycles and pedestrians are not a big factor in that total because of physics.)
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  #57  
Old 01.10.2017, 11:48
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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of which how many were caused by speeding?
More or less all of them. If you think of a collision as the meeting of two bodies, at least one of which should have been stationary previous to the meeting, then there you go.

Only edge cases like spontaneous combustion would be left over. Pretty much everything else is essentially the result of the driver driving his/her car into a space where no (two) car(s) or objects should be.

You often hear "the weather is to blame" on the news when there is a pileup. Short of tornados and avalanches, it isn't the weather, it's people following too close for the weather conditions.
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  #58  
Old 01.10.2017, 12:16
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

We live on a corner and it's where many kindergarten and primary school kids cross the road (because it's where one pavement ends on one side.

However, it's a wide road, it's residential, and it's a 30KPH.

Given all the above factors, most people drive very carefully there, quite often well below the speed limit, especially at school start and finish times.

However, there a a few people who deem it necessary to go incredibly fast there so the neighbours want to get a temporary speed camera installed.

We want those people speeding to get caught, and to get fined (or have their licences taken away if driving far too fast).

These people already know they shouldn't be driving too fast here so perhaps people like Don Molina could explain what the hell would be the point of informing these people in advance that there will be a camera installed?

As I wrote before, if they need constant reminders that they are exceeding the speed limit then they really shouldn't be one the road.
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  #59  
Old 01.10.2017, 15:25
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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More or less all of them. If you think of a collision as the meeting of two bodies, at least one of which should have been stationary previous to the meeting, then there you go.
It's a nice bit of sophistry, but essentially wrong. Speeding in this case has a legal definition, rather than something we can say about the natural order of the universe. Better to say, I think, that the driver in question failed to control his vehicle.

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You often hear "the weather is to blame" on the news when there is a pileup. Short of tornados and avalanches, it isn't the weather, it's people following too close for the weather conditions.
My favourite is "the sun was in my eyes and I couldn't see anything". Well, if you can't see anything, why don't you stop the car until you can?

That very excuse was used by a taxi driver who nearly ploughed into me from behind as I made a left turn on my bicycle after I gave a very clear and exaggerated signal and moved into the centre of the road. He first claimed that I hadn't signalled and when a passerby who saw the whole thing pointed out that I'd made a very clear signal, he claimed the sun had been in his eyes...
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  #60  
Old 01.10.2017, 15:38
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Re: fined for warning about speed control

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I guess they would claim that this is an invitation to speed everywhere else except at the speed control. If you don't know where the controls are you have a greater incentive to not speed everywhere. Or something.
I would have thought it was obvious. But yes it had to be stated by baboon. Not knowing all the speed traps keep drivers more honest all the time. It is not about being a smarty pants, knowing all the mobile speed traps etc and speeding elsewhere.

Then there is the, again obvious matter of what's app not being secure. Really please are you kidding? After all the Wikileaks and whistle blower info coming our way...?

You got what you deserved by directly interfering with the Swiss police.

All I have received from the Swiss police is incredible tolerance. And it had made me a much less ignorant car and motorbike rider.
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