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View Poll Results: What propulsion do you prefer?
Pure EV goodness 38 50.00%
Petrol (Diesel) sippers (PHEV) 11 14.47%
Petrol (Diesel) guzzlers 23 30.26%
Nah, I will go for hydrogen fuel cells when available 6 7.89%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 29.06.2021, 11:04
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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I recently saw a PS2 the first time in real life. It does look nice (it was the top spec version with Öhlins brake calipers etc.) - though it's a much more massive car than the Model 3, with more or less the same space inside.
This is a concession to aesthetics. Why an AMG GTS is so small inside considering it's much wider than any 4 door sedan? All those curves take some space.

Of course, a lot of people is constrained by practical concerns, that's why the Skoda Octavia is a top seller. But there's a whole lot of other people who couldn't care less about practicality. I guess that's the point of luxury, being oblivious to the practical concerns of common-sense people.
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  #82  
Old 29.06.2021, 12:11
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

Rumors of Model Y shipments from China are persistent.

There are apparently no Q3 shipments of Model 3 LR coming at all - we will know when the first people get one (or the showroom models finally show up).
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  #83  
Old 29.06.2021, 13:12
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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This is a concession to aesthetics. Why an AMG GTS is so small inside considering it's much wider than any 4 door sedan? All those curves take some space.

Of course, a lot of people is constrained by practical concerns, that's why the Skoda Octavia is a top seller. But there's a whole lot of other people who couldn't care less about practicality. I guess that's the point of luxury, being oblivious to the practical concerns of common-sense people.
Some are well off and indulge, others leave out planting a tree and eat their seeds, more-or-less figuratively. Choices, choices :-)
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  #84  
Old 29.06.2021, 13:33
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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Rumors of Model Y shipments from China are persistent. There are apparently no Q3 shipments of Model 3 LR coming at all - we will know when the first people get one (or the showroom models finally show up).
That's an issue. The ships carrying the cars can be tracked but the final destination of the cars is known until last moment.

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Some are well off and indulge, others leave out planting a tree and eat their seeds, more-or-less figuratively. Choices, choices :-)
It's a multicultural country. No surprise every culture and even every family has a unique relationship with money. I better close with someone smarter than me, a wild haired guy from the XIX century:

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  #85  
Old 19.10.2021, 11:16
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

Lurking in Linkedin so you don't have to.....well, VW's CEO shared some stats showing driving the electric version of VW cars is cheaper than the gas one.

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  #86  
Old 19.10.2021, 11:36
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

Graph doesn't take in to account deprecation.

Deprecation will be the worst hit for current ICE owners.

It will be a giant destruction of equity.
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  #87  
Old 19.10.2021, 11:44
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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Graph doesn't take in to account deprecation.

Deprecation will be the worst hit for current ICE owners.

It will be a giant destruction of equity.
That's for all cars.
If you look at 4 year old electric cars, you see that only Teslas keep their value. The other ones are mainly using obsolete technology.
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  #88  
Old 19.10.2021, 12:00
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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Graph doesn't take in to account deprecation.

Deprecation will be the worst hit for current ICE owners.

It will be a giant destruction of equity.
You're right. Depreciation was not taken into account.

On the other hand, the numbers there are already proven. Depreciation is a thing that happens in the future. We can make some estimates about it, educated guess and all that, but nothing 100% certain. Some models are appreciated by people 5 or 15 years later and the prices are crazy. Others are hated 4 years after launch date. Also, some people just destroy cars and others drive 5K km a year while paying underground garage.

Read somewhere about Teslas holding their value. But, check autoscout24, I see several 4-5 years old Model S selling below 50K CHF which is more or less half of price when new. Don't know if Teslas not being touched by depreciation is a cultural thing happening in other countries. For CH, Tesla depreciation seems to follow the trend of any other car https://www.autoscout24.ch/fr/voitur...ge=3&vehtyp=10
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  #89  
Old 19.10.2021, 12:10
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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You're right. Depreciation was not taken into account.

On the other hand, the numbers there are already proven. Depreciation is a thing that happens in the future. We can make some estimates about it, educated guess and all that, but nothing 100% certain. Some models are appreciated by people 5 or 15 years later and the prices are crazy. Others are hated 4 years after launch date. Also, some people just destroy cars and others drive 5K km a year while paying underground garage.

Read somewhere about Teslas holding their value. But, check autoscout24, I see several 4-5 years old Model S selling below 50K CHF which is more or less half of price when new. Don't know if Teslas not being touched by depreciation is a cultural thing happening in other countries. For CH, Tesla depreciation seems to follow the trend of any other car https://www.autoscout24.ch/fr/voitur...ge=3&vehtyp=10
Depends upon the life expectancy of the battery which is about 50% of the car's cost to replace.
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  #90  
Old 19.10.2021, 12:29
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

Depreciation is interesting.

But, the reason I posted the linkedin screen capture was that the CEO of a car company that on 2019 assembled 11 million ICE cars and 0.05 million BEVs (50K) is telling today the cost of ownership of electric cars is lower.

2020 numbers are not representative because covid
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  #91  
Old 19.10.2021, 12:30
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

ICE cars will not appreciate.

Well, maybe some. But very few.

I don't see CRT TVs fetching record prices on eBay.


Just ask somebody in Germany trying to sell an Euro 5 Diesel. They got to export, mostly - and far earlier than the owners previously thought.

Only that nobody will want the current generation of ICE-cars in Africa once warranty has run out. Too much electronics, high-tech (and bad software) and unrepairable plastic to make them viable outside of Europe (and paved roads).

They don't even have gas-stations outside big cities in most of Africa, just people selling it from canisters. Does anybody think they'll get AdBlue down there to prevent the Euro 6d diesels from going into limp mode once it has run out?

Because they still need ICE cars there, my guess is that Chinese manufactures will cover them.
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  #92  
Old 19.10.2021, 12:32
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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Depreciation is interesting.

But, the reason I posted the linkedin screen capture was that the CEO of a car company that on 2019 assembled 11 million ICE cars and 0.05 million BEVs (50K) is telling today the cost of ownership of electric cars is lower.

2020 numbers are not representative because covid
They can't even make them fast enough.

ID.4 et.al. have 12 months+ delivery times.
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  #93  
Old 19.10.2021, 12:42
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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Only that nobody will want the current generation of ICE-cars in Africa once warranty has run out. Too much electronics, high-tech (and bad software) and unrepairable plastic to make them viable outside of Europe (and paved roads).

They don't even have gas-stations outside big cities in most of Africa, just people selling it from canisters. Does anybody think they'll get AdBlue down there to prevent the Euro 6d diesels from going into limp mode once it has run out?

Because they still need ICE cars there, my guess is that Chinese manufactures will cover them.
Not that familiar with Adblue, my last diesel pick up truck did not required that If I understand well, it's an additive for the catalytic converter. Coming from a place like that.....well, the catalytic converter is dismounted and recycled before being retailed to customers over there. Straight steel pipe is welded in that place. End of problem.

Also, I wonder how hard is to develop a simplified ECU that just controls the most basic engine functions and ignores emissions, electronic stability control, etc. A simple ECU that just makes the car run. So, what is the most exported car model to Africa? Smells like business.....but I'd bet a couple beers Chinese business people already sell that :/
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  #94  
Old 19.10.2021, 12:57
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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Not that familiar with Adblue, my last diesel pick up truck did not required that If I understand well, it's an additive for the catalytic converter. Coming from a place like that.....well, the catalytic converter is dismounted and recycled before being retailed to customers over there. Straight steel pipe is welded in that place. End of problem.

Also, I wonder how hard is to develop a simplified ECU that just controls the most basic engine functions and ignores emissions, electronic stability control, etc. A simple ECU that just makes the car run. So, what is the most exported car model to Africa? Smells like business.....but I'd bet a couple beers Chinese business people already sell that :/
The question is: how long will the engine run like this? Even if you replace the ECU. Or more: because you replaced the ECU?

On top of that, I doubt you can even run an Euro6d car with the kind of quality of fuel you get there for a prolonged time before the engine gives in.

It's not just about losing a few horse-power worth of engine-power.

Pre-facelift G-Wagons could be down-fitted to Euro 4, IIRC, to make them work in Africa (people like to take them on round-the-world-trips...). But the recent models can't.

The whole engine has been designed from the ground up to work in a very specific environment (fuel, additives, service/maintenance etc.pp.). And all the safety-margins that made Diesel-engines run for 500k+ km in the past, they have been sacrificed on the altar of cost-savings, weight savings and emission reduction a long time ago.

I'm not an engineer, but my gut-feeling (from reading various forums) is that the current crop of ICE cars was not made to last.

At least not the higher-end European ones. Maybe a Dacia Duster works better in the long run, at least the pre Euro 6d ones.
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Old 19.10.2021, 13:07
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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The question is: how long will the engine run like this? Even if you replace the ECU. Or more: because you replaced the ECU?

On top of that, I doubt you can even run an Euro6d car with the kind of quality of fuel you get there for a prolonged time before the engine gives in.

It's not just about losing a few horse-power worth of engine-power.

Pre-facelift G-Wagons could be down-fitted to Euro 4, IIRC, to make them work in Africa (people like to take them on round-the-world-trips...). But the recent models can't.

The whole engine has been designed from the ground up to work in a very specific environment (fuel, additives, service/maintenance etc.pp.). And all the safety-margins that made Diesel-engines run for 500k+ km in the past, they have been sacrificed on the altar of cost-savings, weight savings and emission reduction a long time ago.

I'm not an engineer, but my gut-feeling (from reading various forums) is that the current crop of ICE cars was not made to last.

At least not the higher-end European ones. Maybe a Dacia Duster works better in the long run, at least the pre Euro 6d ones.
Perhaps VW can answer this one. Have always wondered where all those diesel recalls went.
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  #96  
Old 19.10.2021, 13:39
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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The question is: how long will the engine run like this? Even if you replace the ECU. Or more: because you replaced the ECU?

On top of that, I doubt you can even run an Euro6d car with the kind of quality of fuel you get there for a prolonged time before the engine gives in.

It's not just about losing a few horse-power worth of engine-power.

Pre-facelift G-Wagons could be down-fitted to Euro 4, IIRC, to make them work in Africa (people like to take them on round-the-world-trips...). But the recent models can't.

The whole engine has been designed from the ground up to work in a very specific environment (fuel, additives, service/maintenance etc.pp.). And all the safety-margins that made Diesel-engines run for 500k+ km in the past, they have been sacrificed on the altar of cost-savings, weight savings and emission reduction a long time ago.

I'm not an engineer, but my gut-feeling (from reading various forums) is that the current crop of ICE cars was not made to last.

At least not the higher-end European ones. Maybe a Dacia Duster works better in the long run, at least the pre Euro 6d ones.
I'm just an old car aficionado. The most complex thing related to electronics I did with a friend was to visit a junkyard to buy an ECU when the one in his truck died. And fix a the window electric motor, which is also visiting the junkyard to buy one there.

Catalytic converters can be scrapped for a profit. But you're right, dirty fuel can clog filters, make the fuel pump work harder and fail, damage injectors, etc. And all these damage makes the repair economically unfeasible.

But, I wouldn't underestimate the ability of people over there to make the engines work in spite of all challenges. At least modern cars don't rust that much. When I was a child cars were scrapped because the steel just fell apart, not because the drivetrain was at the end of the life.
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  #97  
Old 04.11.2021, 12:03
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

It ticks a few boxes.

The electric motor is being sold at 4K USD. Maybe I should return to somewhere where workshop floor space and labor costs are lower to play with cars and injure my hands once again

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  #98  
Old 04.11.2021, 14:02
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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They can't even make them fast enough.

ID.4 et.al. have 12 months+ delivery times.
Most of delivery delays are due to lack of microchips - and the fact that Tesla can assemble their EVs faster than VW.

I ordered an iD.3 at the end of June. So far the “late September”, the “late October” delivery promises have passed…
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Old 04.11.2021, 14:11
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

They mention which year ?
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  #100  
Old 05.11.2021, 10:02
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Re: EV and PHEV corner

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Most of delivery delays are due to lack of microchips - and the fact that Tesla can assemble their EVs faster than VW.

I ordered an iD.3 at the end of June. So far the “late September”, the “late October” delivery promises have passed…
Best to wait at least 5 years before buying anything new. Give's em time to get the bugs out.
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