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Old 27.01.2019, 17:51
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Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

I read in last week's edition of Der Spiegel that airlines such as EasyJet and Vueling (with majority British shareholders) may not be permitted to fly within the EU if there is a no deal Brexit. Does this mean that if I book flights now with either of these airlines for my Easter holidays, I might end up not being able to fly?
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Old 27.01.2019, 18:02
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

Just a few days ago it was reported that EasyJet was now close to the 50.1 percent shareholding threshold it needs for recognition by the EU as European-owned and possessing an air carrier licence under EU law:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...repared-brexit

The idea is that EasyJet's parent company would be EU-owned, while EasyJet UK will be treated as a British carrier.

Last edited by Stendec; 27.01.2019 at 18:13.
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Old 27.01.2019, 18:03
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

Yes, and no compensation as they will invoke 'force majeure' - that's way they have a massive SALE on with very cheap prices. Booked a couple knowing we might just lose them.
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Old 27.01.2019, 18:58
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

Switzerland isn't part of the EU so the article as reported by OP ("flights within the EU") doesn't apply, flyover rights for Germany or France should do for direct flights.

But I fail to see how EJ's splitting up can improve the regulatory situation for their UK-EU air traffic. The new EJ(EU) and EJ(UK) carriers will still need flyover and landing rights in the other's territory, and that AFAIK will be removed by Brexit. Of course both parties could grant each other those rights unilaterally but that wouldn't get the UK back in control and create quite a conundrum in and of itself.
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Old 27.01.2019, 19:03
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Switzerland isn't part of the EU so the article as reported by OP ("flights within the EU") doesn't apply, flyover rights for Germany or France should do for direct flights.

But I fail to see how EJ's splitting up can improve the regulatory situation for their UK-EU air traffic. The new EJ(EU) and EJ(UK) carriers will still need flyover and landing rights in the other's territory, and that AFAIK will be removed by Brexit. Of course both parties could grant each other those rights unilaterally but that wouldn't get the UK back in control and create quite a conundrum in and of itself.
If a company moves (mostly on paper) the rights are not automatically revoked.
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Old 27.01.2019, 19:03
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Just a few days ago it was reported that EasyJet was now close to the 50.1 percent shareholding threshold it needs for recognition by the EU as European-owned and possessing an air carrier licence under EU law:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...repared-brexit

The idea is that EasyJet's parent company would be EU-owned, while EasyJet UK will be treated as a British carrier.
Since easyJet is the only carrier that goes from Geneva to Scotland, we use them a lot.. It's normally Easyjet Switzerland we fly with though.. So not affected?
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Old 27.01.2019, 19:07
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

Son and family have booked to come over in early April, they were very cheap so they havenít got much to lose really.
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Old 27.01.2019, 19:51
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

It is complicated, and it all depends if the EC decides to play hard ball. At the moment this appears to be unlikely, even with a hard brexit.

The operative phrase in aviation is “substantial owned” and “effectively controled” by nationals of the country concerned (or EU nationals for EU airlines)

Ownership is fairly easy to determine, although 50% plus 1 share isn’t really “substantial” but that is how the EC defines it today.

Control is much more difficult to determine. Where are decisions on fleet planning made? What about decisions on route entry and exit, schedules and pricing made?

Will easyJet Austria truly be effectively controlled by EU nationals? What about the board of directors?

So it is possible that easyJet Austria will not be judged to be an EU airline, but British. This means that they would not be allowed to fly between two EU airports. To/from the UK would be OK, but Milan Frankfurt would not be.
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Old 27.01.2019, 20:25
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Son and family have booked to come over in early April, they were very cheap so they havenít got much to lose really.
That wouldnít be a flight within the EU, flights to/from the UK would be least affected.
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Old 27.01.2019, 20:30
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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If a company moves (mostly on paper) the rights are not automatically revoked.
Describe the rights your'e talking about.
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Old 27.01.2019, 20:37
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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So it is possible that easyJet Austria will not be judged to be an EU airline, but British. This means that they would not be allowed to fly between two EU airports. To/from the UK would be OK, but Milan Frankfurt would not be.
How?

The UK will no longer be part of the EU's open skies agreement so no more flyover and landing rights by the EU. IIRC that would require certification by some EU authoritiy or equivalent, the latter in turn would require an agreement of equivalency of the UK's authority. At least that's how I remember the explanations (Blueangel's and perhaps other's) over in the Brexit thread.
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Old 27.01.2019, 20:45
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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How?

The UK will no longer be part of the EU's open skies agreement so no more flyover and landing rights by the EU. IIRC that would require certification by some EU authoritiy or equivalent, the latter in turn would require an agreement of equivalency of the UK's authority. At least that's how I remember the explanations (Blueangel's and perhaps other's) over in the Brexit thread.
Well American airlines donít have to be certified by an EU authority.
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Old 27.01.2019, 20:53
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Describe the rights your'e talking about.
Air traffic rights. There are nine of them. The first two overflight and transit stops are governed by another international treaty. The next two, the right to fly passengers and cargo between your country and another will likely apply on the basis of comity.

Four of the next five, the right to carry traffic between two other countries, or within other countries will be lost. For example easyJet UK flying passengers in the EU and within EU countries.

The last one (the right to carry trafic via your country) doesn’t actually exist, except in a half dozen specific countries.

I said it was complicated.
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Old 27.01.2019, 22:14
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Air traffic rights. There are nine of them. The first two overflight and transit stops are governed by another international treaty. The next two, the right to fly passengers and cargo between your country and another will likely apply on the basis of comity.

Four of the next five, the right to carry traffic between two other countries, or within other countries will be lost. For example easyJet UK flying passengers in the EU and within EU countries.

The last one (the right to carry trafic via your country) doesnít actually exist, except in a half dozen specific countries.

I said it was complicated.
Is this what you're talking about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
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Old 27.01.2019, 22:41
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Is this what you're talking about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
Yes.
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Old 27.01.2019, 22:56
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Just a few days ago it was reported that EasyJet was now close to the 50.1 percent shareholding threshold it needs for recognition by the EU as European-owned and possessing an air carrier licence under EU law:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...repared-brexit

The idea is that EasyJet's parent company would be EU-owned, while EasyJet UK will be treated as a British carrier.
This concept has already been shot down by the EU in the case of BA and it's holding company. So not reassuring in the case of EasyJet. Wait and see.
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Old 27.01.2019, 23:01
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Switzerland isn't part of the EU so the article as reported by OP ("flights within the EU") doesn't apply, flyover rights for Germany or France should do for direct flights.
Yes but it is not that simple. Somewhere there is an article from Michael O'Leary explaining this. The problem is actually scheduling aircraft to be where it is needed and this takes several months to actually set up. And the deadline for that was last October apparently.

So I'd expect there will be all kind of knock on impacts if it happens.
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Old 27.01.2019, 23:02
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Well American airlines donít have to be certified by an EU authority.
Why should they, they already have an agreement on this????
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Old 27.01.2019, 23:46
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Four of the next five, the right to carry traffic between two other countries, or within other countries will be lost. For example easyJet UK flying passengers in the EU and within EU countries.
Which is what I wrote above. So you agree. Good.

And no, Edwin, those rights can't be transferred absent some kind of agreement.
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Well American airlines don’t have to be certified by an EU authority.
They've got an open skies agreement

Last edited by Urs Max; 28.01.2019 at 00:04.
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Old 28.01.2019, 00:01
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Re: Booking holiday flights - Brexit problems

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Since easyJet is the only carrier that goes from Geneva to Scotland, we use them a lot.. It's normally Easyjet Switzerland we fly with though.. So not affected?
Better assume they are until you know they're owned by Easyjet (EU) and that the EU accepts them as Swiss or EU carrier.

Switzerland had a similar problem when Swiss airlines became German as a consequence of the buyout by Lufthansa. They managed to get kind of a bypass accepted based on the claim that their operational center is Switzerland. Some countries wanted and got their agreements amended but most simply accept it tacitly.

Something similar could be put in place for EU/UK airlines but a hard Brexit won't allow that if it's done by the letter.
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