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  #481  
Old 22.02.2021, 22:50
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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Hi all,

Seriously considering hopping on the band wagon when the model Y is released. Aside from 22yard's model X range issue not many people have discussed range. Range anxiety is my primary concern even after watching numerous range tests. I drove a mobility model S a few months ago and it consumed almost 40 percent for the 140km round trip drive, up hills and cold weather. What have your experiences been with the model 3(with or without heat pump)? Are 360km day trips skiing feasible without a top up in between? Thanks!
Others have already responded (and you as well), but my understanding is that winter + highway driving will eat enough battery such that with a safe margin, you should only rely on 50% of stated range. Given the Y LR is rated for 508km, 360km seems a bit high.
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  #482  
Old 23.02.2021, 09:42
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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Others have already responded (and you as well), but my understanding is that winter + highway driving will eat enough battery such that with a safe margin, you should only rely on 50% of stated range. Given the Y LR is rated for 508km, 360km seems a bit high.
50% loss is exaggerated! I reckon on about 20% loss in the winter without preheating the batteries. (When connected to the mains/solar, preheating the interior is wonderful and if cold enough the batteries are also heated.)

Swiss highway driving at 120kph is approx the same consumption as stop start city driving. Like ICE cars, EVs are less economical on short journeys...

ADDED. I have lost 5% total battery capacity in 2 years/17,000 kms. This is normal and I expect it flatten out to 8% in a year or 2...
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  #483  
Old 23.02.2021, 10:22
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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I have just bought a Model 3 LR 2021 version (with heat pump) and it’s range is 580kms. Apart from the superb road holding in snow and rain the range is something else compared to my old Model X, virtually double as the X was 3 years old. I’ve also noticed that it supercharges much faster too, about 20 mins from 20% to 80%.
It’s a good time to get one too, Tesla have knocked 4,000 off the new price. This was going to be my car until the Y is out, I want the 7-seater, but I will not be that happy the day I have to let it go.
The price differential between a Model Y LR (e.g. with blue paint, upgraded wheels, and FSD) compared to a similarly Model 3 is just over CHF 10k. In the USA the same difference is $3.5k

In those specs:
US Model 3: $56,990
US Model Y: $60,490
Swiss Model 3: CHF 62,930
Swiss Model Y: CHF 73,440

This because the Swiss Model 3 has received a few price reductions which have not been applied to pre-orders of the Model Y. It is hard to justify this price difference - one wonders whether Tesla will address this before or after starting to supply actual Y's' ??

This would be especially fair if the Model Y comes as planned from Giga Berlin. Perhaps less import charges and transportation charges, since they are not coming from the other side of the world, plus manufacturing efficiences such as the single casting machine. Hopefully Tesla makes good on its wish to transfer potential savings to its customers.
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  #484  
Old 23.02.2021, 19:25
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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50% loss is exaggerated! I reckon on about 20% loss in the winter without preheating the batteries. (When connected to the mains/solar, preheating the interior is wonderful and if cold enough the batteries are also heated.)

Swiss highway driving at 120kph is approx the same consumption as stop start city driving. Like ICE cars, EVs are less economical on short journeys...

ADDED. I have lost 5% total battery capacity in 2 years/17,000 kms. This is normal and I expect it flatten out to 8% in a year or 2...
So I don't have a Tesla, but from what I read, my understanding is that winder is 20-25%, and highway driving at > 110km/h is another 20%. Hence, when combined, it's 40-45%.

The short-distance driving is only bad for EVs in winter, when energy is spent on heating, but not in summer/warm conditions.

Again, I don't have a Tesla, just from my reading (mostly of US forums).
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  #485  
Old 23.02.2021, 21:44
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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So I don't have a Tesla, but from what I read, my understanding is that winder is 20-25%, and highway driving at > 110km/h is another 20%. Hence, when combined, it's 40-45%.

The short-distance driving is only bad for EVs in winter, when energy is spent on heating, but not in summer/warm conditions.

Again, I don't have a Tesla, just from my reading (mostly of US forums).
You're correct. I don't think any Tesla driver would manage to achieve a loss of only 20% in winter. As you noted, I'm a constant critic of the fake ranges that Tesla (and to be fair, the other EV makers, too) touts. Another factor that really makes a difference is wheel size. We have 22" rims for summer but deliberately toned down the glitz to 20" for winter to eke out a bit more range. The difference is really noticeable.

Of course, heating is a really major problem for range maximisation. Cabin heating really sucks the battery dry. Tesla's brilliant advice is to use the seat and steering wheel heating and not the full HVAC system... (By the way, heating is a far bigger drain on the battery than air conditioning.)

I would agree that range loss in winter can be as much as 50% if all the negative factors apply.

Also, I don't understand AbFab's comment about stop-start driving (city journeys). That's almost the most efficient mode there is for EVs (as long as the heating is off), especially Teslas with their advanced braking regeneration. The most efficient speed to maximise range is around 30-35 km/h.
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  #486  
Old 24.02.2021, 11:37
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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You're correct. I don't think any Tesla driver would manage to achieve a loss of only 20% in winter. As you noted, I'm a constant critic of the fake ranges that Tesla (and to be fair, the other EV makers, too) touts. Another factor that really makes a difference is wheel size. We have 22" rims for summer but deliberately toned down the glitz to 20" for winter to eke out a bit more range. The difference is really noticeable.
I have used the "Stats" App for 2 years now. This screenshot shows the average efficiency of all Tesla models:



Of course, this is across the whole world, but with sales prominently in the northern hemisphere and allowing for winter temperatures in places like California, it still gives a good idea of efficiency loss in the winter. This is running out at 14%.

Wheel size, or rather rim size is a common misconception. There is minimal tyre radius difference - otherwise, speedometers would need recalibrating when wheels are changed.

22" rims are likely to be heavier than 20" ones and less efficient. You can calculate the difference here.

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Of course, heating is a really major problem for range maximisation. Cabin heating really sucks the battery dry. Tesla's brilliant advice is to use the seat and steering wheel heating and not the full HVAC system... (By the way, heating is a far bigger drain on the battery than air conditioning.)
Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph

Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18-20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph

"mph" being how many miles are lost using at this rate in an hour.
Source


So heating (pre heat-pump) to 23°C will cost a loss of range of 1.03 miles / 1.65 kms range for every hour of use.

An Italian view here. << This for a SR (standard range) and he achieves remarkable efficiency. My lifelong average is 171Wh/km.

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I would agree that range loss in winter can be as much as 50% if all the negative factors apply.
See Stats App table above.

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Also, I don't understand AbFab's comment about stop-start driving (city journeys). That's almost the most efficient mode there is for EVs (as long as the heating is off), especially Teslas with their advanced braking regeneration. The most efficient speed to maximise range is around 30-35 km/h.
The Tesla page you quote (dated 2012) is for constant speed. I have yet to find a city where this anywhere near possible and particularly difficult in Switzerland.

Model 3 was the second best selling car of all vehicles sold in Switzerland in 2020 including ICE one...
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  #487  
Old 24.02.2021, 13:40
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

That's an impressive set of stats. But my real life experience is nowhere near that.
  • We've found that rim size makes a big difference -- a difference of scores of kilometres of range! There are many, many references in Tesla forums that back up our findings; indeed, Tesla themselves note (or at least, used to note) the drop of range due to larger rims on their US website -- see the EPA range loss of more than 10% in this image taken from an archived screenshot of one of the Tesla accessories pages of their website:

    tesla-fan-boy-thread-tesla-rims.png
  • I just can't believe the figure for HVAC set to 23C, unless it was recorded with an ambient temperature very close to 23C.
  • The "most efficient speed" and the comment about city driving were unrelated, except to point out that EVs are more efficient at lower speeds.
  • The graph showing range loss must have some caveats. We have had isolated journeys in winter, at high Autobahn speeds, where the range loss was close to 50%. That would seem to be a huge outlier on your graph. So far we have covered about 42,000 km and have never -- not on any trip -- achieved Tesla's promised range.

Last edited by Guest; 24.02.2021 at 14:47. Reason: Added info re. rim size
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  #488  
Old 26.02.2021, 00:40
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

So you mention California "winter" and a report from Italy where the "low" temperature was 6°C. This is like autumn weather, not winter!

When winter was mentioned, I assumed around -10°C or so. At that temperature, I still claim you won't get 20% range reduction only.
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Old 26.02.2021, 05:14
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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So you mention California "winter" and a report from Italy where the "low" temperature was 6°C. This is like autumn weather, not winter!

When winter was mentioned, I assumed around -10°C or so. At that temperature, I still claim you won't get 20% range reduction only.
And I agree, as clearly stated!

That said, it's not all doom and gloom. Range loss usually becomes a worry only on long trips. Given that Tesla recommends keeping your car plugged in whenever possible, the battery should be at 80% at the start of most trips, or higher if you're planning a long trip. Say your car has a claimed range of 510 km. 80% is 408 km. Let's say you lose 40% to various factors. The remaining real range is 245 km. That means recharging after 200 km or so, or about two hours into the journey; it's generally good practice to take a short break every two hours anyway.

Ten minutes at a Supercharger will boost your battery from, say 15%, to around 50% (depends on charging speed at the selected Supercharger, of course). Gains reduce as time goes on; a full charge to 90+% could take an hour or more. It's better to charge for short periods, more fequently. When you stop for a meal, you can take the opportunity to charge up to full.
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  #490  
Old 27.02.2021, 23:23
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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And I agree, as clearly stated!

That said, it's not all doom and gloom. Range loss usually becomes a worry only on long trips. Given that Tesla recommends keeping your car plugged in whenever possible, the battery should be at 80% at the start of most trips, or higher if you're planning a long trip. Say your car has a claimed range of 510 km. 80% is 408 km. Let's say you lose 40% to various factors. The remaining real range is 245 km. That means recharging after 200 km or so, or about two hours into the journey; it's generally good practice to take a short break every two hours anyway.

Ten minutes at a Supercharger will boost your battery from, say 15%, to around 50% (depends on charging speed at the selected Supercharger, of course). Gains reduce as time goes on; a full charge to 90+% could take an hour or more. It's better to charge for short periods, more fequently. When you stop for a meal, you can take the opportunity to charge up to full.
Well, I agree with all you stated here - the range for the LR models is enough, but I was arguing against the only 20% loss in winter. In my oppininon, the SR variants are not good for winter, the LR ones are.

But even for LR, you need to be aware of increased consumption in winter, and plan long trips differently.
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  #491  
Old 28.02.2021, 00:09
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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Well, I agree with all you stated here - the range for the LR models is enough, but I was arguing against the only 20% loss in winter. In my oppininon, the SR variants are not good for winter, the LR ones are.

But even for LR, you need to be aware of increased consumption in winter, and plan long trips differently.
You don’t need to plan anything. Just punch in your destination in the navigation and the car will work it out for you. It knows your state of charge at the start, what you are going to need and where and when to top up...
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  #492  
Old 08.03.2021, 14:23
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

Not sure how relevant this is, but how high is insurance on average for a new Tesla Model 3? Same as any other vehicle in the price range?

Since Cybertruck is coming next year I'm trying to comprehend just how expensive the upkeep would end up as.
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  #493  
Old 08.03.2021, 14:43
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

another tesla question to owners since the thread was bumped.

how do you manage to use that giant ipad stuck to dash while driving? i really struggle to take my eyes off the road for more than a second and find in normal cars i can barely do anything on touchscreens. i need tactile buttons, found where i expect them to be, to do anything while driving.
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Old 08.03.2021, 14:52
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

There's this guy from Zurich:

https://tff-forum.de/t/tesla-versich...hweiz/27378/27


The problem - as with all "modern" cars is that all repairs are expensive.

There's no more "That'll buff right out" anymore, as a lot of stuff is plastic.

Like bumpers: can't buff them out, have to replace them.

Or aluminium.

From looking at the prices, the insurance costs are comparable to a similar car in that price-range (e.g. an E-Class Mercedes).

We will have to see how much repairs of the single-cast Model Y frame cost - if it's repairable at all ...
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  #495  
Old 08.03.2021, 15:04
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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We will have to see how much repairs of the single-cast Model Y frame cost - if it's repairable at all ...
That's the culprit with Tesla - they manufacture very cost effectively, but the things they build are not very maintenance-friendly.

You can't go anywhere to have stuff fixed and there is hardly any supply for spare bodyparts (I was told, confirmation needed).

If Model Y will have just 4 large parts it's going to be an economical disaster for all minor bumps. Talk about sustainability and going green
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  #496  
Old 08.03.2021, 15:15
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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Not sure how relevant this is, but how high is insurance on average for a new Tesla Model 3? Same as any other vehicle in the price range?

Since Cybertruck is coming next year I'm trying to comprehend just how expensive the upkeep would end up as.
comparis.ch works fine. The price estimate was really close to the price I got when leased a car. Not a Tesla but I don't see why comparis would not work.
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Old 08.03.2021, 15:16
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

WTH? there's a whole community of teslaites out there. who would have thought....
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  #498  
Old 08.03.2021, 15:26
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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another tesla question to owners since the thread was bumped.

how do you manage to use that giant ipad stuck to dash while driving? i really struggle to take my eyes off the road for more than a second and find in normal cars i can barely do anything on touchscreens. i need tactile buttons, found where i expect them to be, to do anything while driving.
I rarely touch the screen except when parked to watch Netflix, play solitaire etc. Voice command is activated by a steering wheel button and that will do most things...
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Old 08.03.2021, 15:28
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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Not sure how relevant this is, but how high is insurance on average for a new Tesla Model 3? Same as any other vehicle in the price range?

Since Cybertruck is coming next year I'm trying to comprehend just how expensive the upkeep would end up as.
I have a Golf 7 GTI which is considerably more to insure than my Model 3. I pay around CHF1100/year for everything on the Tesla...
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Old 08.03.2021, 15:31
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Re: Tesla Fan Boy Thread

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That's the culprit with Tesla - they manufacture very cost effectively, but the things they build are not very maintenance-friendly.

You can't go anywhere to have stuff fixed and there is hardly any supply for spare bodyparts (I was told, confirmation needed).

If Model Y will have just 4 large parts it's going to be an economical disaster for all minor bumps. Talk about sustainability and going green
Last year I had some parking damage repaired over both steel and aluminium around the rear offside wheel and passenger door. This was done with the approval of Zurich insurance with their approved bodyshop in Uster. Took 3 days and no parts required...
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