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Old 15.03.2019, 13:26
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Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

On only my second driving excursion I encountered this puzzle:


legend
------
0,o - cars
@ - my car, wanting Left turn
= - zebra crossing
░ - nothing

diagram
-------

░░░░░░░░░░░^
░░░░░░░░░░░' another stoplight causing backup

░░░░░░░░░| '0|
░░░░░░░░░| '0|
░░░░░░░░░| '0|
_________| '0|_________
░░░░░░░░░=░░0=o o o o o <- much traffic coming most wanting Right turn
---------=░░░=---------
__o_o_o_@=___=_________




Standard procedure in the US is to intentionally strand oneself somewhere out in the intersection, and once the light turns red, take the opportunity to pile onto the back of the pileup, or maybe it will move forward in time since the oncoming right-turners should be obeying the red at this point to give you a chance.

First I don't know whether it is same here, and second, it is made trickier by lack of signal light on the far side of the intersection (always craning one's head to the side or upwards to see it, even when at the line).

I received a honk from behind, ended up on top of the zebra crossing not wanting to prematurely turn and block the intersection fully, and not knowing when the red had turned. Pedestrian walked in front of me and scolded for blocking the crossing.
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Old 15.03.2019, 14:27
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

1. You are not allowed to hinder pedestrians by standing still on a zebra with your car.
2. You are not allowed to block the other lane.

You go to the far left of your lane and wait in front of the zebra till you have the opportunity to go into the other street without blocking the other lane.
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Old 15.03.2019, 14:38
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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1. You are not allowed to hinder pedestrians by standing still on a zebra with your car.
2. You are not allowed to block the other lane.

You go to the far left of your lane and wait in front of the zebra till you have the opportunity to go into the other street without blocking the other lane.
To be clear the lane was narrow enough to not admit two car-widths. I can try this next time though and see if the on-comers are courteous enough to eventually get me in.
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Old 15.03.2019, 14:39
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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legend
------
0,o - cars
@ - my car, wanting Left turn
= - zebra crossing
░ - nothing

diagram
-------

░░░░░░░░░░░^
░░░░░░░░░░░' another stoplight causing backup

░░░░░░░░░| '0|
░░░░░░░░░| '0|
░░░░░░░░░| '0|
_________| '0|_________
░░░░░░░░░=░░0=o o o o o <- much traffic coming most wanting Right turn
---------=░░░=---------
__o_o_o_@=___=_________


Respect for putting the ASCII drawing together!
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Old 15.03.2019, 16:22
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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To be clear the lane was narrow enough to not admit two car-widths. I can try this next time though and see if the on-comers are courteous enough to eventually get me in.
That probably means you must stand still on the intersection as that's the only place wide enough to let the others pass you on the right.

By default you have to stand on the blue spot (it's probably set back a few meters in reality). But lacking the width it may be actually be better to stand on the red spot (not turned to the left yet, before the pedestrian strip) as that's where there is enough room to pass you on the right. If I understand you correctly that's what you'd do in the US as well.

In reality:
When in Rome do as the Romans do. Watch and mimick what the drivers in front of you do.




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Old 15.03.2019, 16:55
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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That probably means you must stand still on the intersection as that's the only place wide enough to let the others pass you on the right.

By default you have to stand on the blue spot (it's probably set back a few meters in reality). But lacking the width it may be actually be better to stand on the red spot (not turned to the left yet, before the pedestrian strip) as that's where there is enough room to pass you on the right. If I understand you correctly that's what you'd do in the US as well.

In reality:
When in Rome do as the Romans do. Watch and mimick what the drivers in front of you do.




I have to disagree, at that red position he would block the traffic coming from above who want to go to their left. Every other position besides the blue spot could get him a fine since it is not allowed to block crossings or pedestrian crossings.

If he can't make his turn yet and the lane is to narrow for two cars he should just let the cars behind him wait and keep making eye contact with the cars from the other direction going to their right to see if they left him in.
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Old 15.03.2019, 17:03
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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That probably means you must stand still on the intersection as that's the only place wide enough to let the others pass you on the right.

By default you have to stand on the blue spot (it's probably set back a few meters in reality). But lacking the width it may be actually be better to stand on the red spot (not turned to the left yet, before the pedestrian strip) as that's where there is enough room to pass you on the right. If I understand you correctly that's what you'd do in the US as well.
Between this and the suggestion to stay behind the zebra crossing, as well as the understanding that holding on the zebra-crossing is a no-no, gives me enough to problem-solve similar situations in the moment.

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In reality:
When in Rome do as the Romans do. Watch and mimick what the drivers in front of you do.
This has been my motto about figuring out how to drive here. Worst case though you can always get cut off and made the lead car somehow, and then it is also possible you can't replay the actions of the car ahead of you since the situation could have changed since they went.

Anyways, I think this may have been where it was (pin / coordinates where I was, heading SW). Google incorrectly has Bäckerstrasse labelled as one-way, which would simplify the situation only slightly as it would mean one less lane to potentially block.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/47...93!4d8.5275287

I think those are parked cars under the trees in the image? I don't recall from the moment.

It actually looks like if I had stayed behind the zebra, and if I had been roughly centered properly (since there is no line), that cars could have gotten around on both sides.
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Old 15.03.2019, 17:13
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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I have to disagree, at that red position he would block the traffic coming from above who want to go to their left.
Nope (at least that's the idea). If those from behind can pass OP on the right, those from above can as well.
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Old 15.03.2019, 17:14
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

Drive straight on, do a u-turn at the best opportunity, then turn right?
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Old 15.03.2019, 17:34
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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Respect for putting the ASCII drawing together!
but i don't know why space wasn't used for 'nothing' throughout?
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Old 16.03.2019, 17:08
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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but i don't know why space wasn't used for 'nothing' throughout?
I actually spent (wasted?) some time on this. Whether or not the text is inside a CODE block, the forum will collapse a) leading spaces and b) anything more than 1 consecutive space. Maybe some more research into vBulletin would reveal a better solution. I just tried alternate characters, e.g. non-breaking space (aka &nbsp; ), which also gets collapsed. So then I just looked at rendered characters supported by Courier New which wouldn't be too visually distracting. I don't think the forum has a Unicode fixed-width font.
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Old 16.03.2019, 17:22
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

Be aware that if you are in the intersection when the light turns red, you have legally run a red light and can/will be fined.

Tom
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Old 16.03.2019, 17:28
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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Be aware that if you are in the intersection when the light turns red, you have legally run a red light and can/will be fined.

Tom
The rules are very simple: Don't enter an intersection without being certain you also can leave it, driving unto an intersection while waiting for traffic to give you space to leave it is illegal in a lot of countries and imho will not be different here.
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Old 16.03.2019, 19:45
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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Anyways, I think this may have been where it was (pin / coordinates where I was, heading SW). Google incorrectly has Bäckerstrasse labelled as one-way, which would simplify the situation only slightly as it would mean one less lane to potentially block.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/47...93!4d8.5275287

I think those are parked cars under the trees in the image? I don't recall from the moment.

It actually looks like if I had stayed behind the zebra, and if I had been roughly centered properly (since there is no line), that cars could have gotten around on both sides.
First of all Bäckerstrasse is a one way street (for cars) and only bicycles are allowed down the other way (see the sign on street view).

I assume you were on Ankerstrasse heading SW from the posted coordinates and turning left onto Staufacherstrasse.

In such a case I would position myself on the left lane and wait either:

A) behind the solid line in front of the Zebra Crossing if the “box” is already occupied by another car, or

B) inside the box if it’s free, assuming there is a reasonable chance for you to slot into Staufacherstrasse once the incoming cars stop coming or the light turns amber (when safe to do so)

Furthermore since that intersection has traffic lights on it, the pedestrians have no right of way on the zebra unless the light turns red for cars and the green man comes on. In which case you could theoretically be stuck in the box until the pedestrians finish crossing.

General rule of thumb is: don’t worry about the people behind you, only worry about where you are going and make sure you are doing it safely.
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Old 17.03.2019, 15:45
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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First of all Bäckerstrasse is a one way street (for cars) and only bicycles are allowed down the other way (see the sign on street view).

I assume you were on Ankerstrasse heading SW from the posted coordinates and turning left onto Staufacherstrasse.
No, coordinates are meant to be exactly where I was stopped, and trying to turn left on to Bäckerstrasse. Unfortunately, I might be wrong either about the location, or about my memory of there actually being a stoplight at this spot.

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In such a case I would position myself on the left lane and wait either:

A) behind the solid line in front of the Zebra Crossing if the “box” is already occupied by another car, or

B) inside the box if it’s free, assuming there is a reasonable chance for you to slot into Staufacherstrasse once the incoming cars stop coming or the light turns amber (when safe to do so)

Furthermore since that intersection has traffic lights on it, the pedestrians have no right of way on the zebra unless the light turns red for cars and the green man comes on. In which case you could theoretically be stuck in the box until the pedestrians finish crossing.

General rule of thumb is: don’t worry about the people behind you, only worry about where you are going and make sure you are doing it safely.
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Old 17.03.2019, 17:50
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

You're living in Zürich.
Why on Earth do you need a car

Apologies in advance - couldn't resist it. So happy I gave-up this stress several years ago
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Old 17.03.2019, 21:02
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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No, coordinates are meant to be exactly where I was stopped, and trying to turn left on to Bäckerstrasse. Unfortunately, I might be wrong either about the location, or about my memory of there actually being a stoplight at this spot.
That explains why you had people beeping at you then, if you were trying to turn into a one way street.

Withoit further info on where you were exactly it’s difficult to say for sure.

Zürich is not that bad at all to drive in actually and people are very respectful of the rules. I can think of many worse places to drive in in Europe.
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Old 17.03.2019, 21:47
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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That explains why you had people beeping at you then, if you were trying to turn into a one way street.
It definitely wasn't the wrong way-- as in my original post and diagram I'm 100% sure there were cars piling in that direction (oncoming cars turning right).


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Withoit further info on where you were exactly it’s difficult to say for sure.

Zürich is not that bad at all to drive in actually and people are very respectful of the rules. I can think of many worse places to drive in in Europe.
So far two trips from Mobility.ch parking area->Die Post->Zebrabox (Oerlikon) and back is all I've done. Really looking forward to eventually driving in the country and in the mountains, etc ... Not sure if I'm going to even get a car, but at some point I'll find or manufacture a reason to at least rent a car for such a cruise.
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Old 17.03.2019, 22:28
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Re: Left turn onto busy street at stoplight procedure

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Drive straight on, do a u-turn at the best opportunity, then turn right?
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It definitely wasn't the wrong way-- as in my original post and diagram I'm 100% sure there were cars piling in that direction (oncoming cars turning right).
Maybe the stack of cars coming the opposite direction was following the advice from Squeeeez?
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