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Old 29.06.2019, 20:07
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

The current problem SBB has though is that it is hotter inside their trains than outside. I've been using the train a lot the last week and more often than not this was the case meaning it was at least 35 degrees inside the train. And no possibility to open any windows.

This is simply not acceptable. One train I had to take was actually one of the really old train with no air on but with windows that were fully open. This was actually a much nice experience than the modern trains.




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Engineers agree with you :-) There are international standards about how and how much closed environments and vehicles should be cooled, and temperature has usually a lower limit expressed as "outdoor temperature minus X" where X can be something like 3 or 5, not 20.

Also, humidity and oxygen content can play an important role even if air temperature is not lowered: "fresh air" means "air that you can breathe and helps your skin to exchange heat" and this is not necessarily a synonim for "cool air".

Systems are designed to give passengers some extra comfort, but not a totally different season. When everything works as intended it can be pretty effective, without the risk of making you sick - it happened to me once after a ride in an overcooled Italian regional train.
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  #62  
Old 29.06.2019, 20:13
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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The current problem SBB has though is that it is hotter inside their trains than outside. I've been using the train a lot the last week and more often than not this was the case meaning it was at least 35 degrees inside the train. And no possibility to open any windows.

This is simply not acceptable. One train I had to take was actually one of the really old train with no air on but with windows that were fully open. This was actually a much nice experience than the modern trains.
On that note, there are times when it's faster and breezier to walk than sit in your car stuck in traffic.

I bet the un-openable windows have been designed to protect the train expensive ac/heating microclima, or prevent from accidents. Imagine ultramodern fast trains going back to opening windows, though. Not happening, me thinks.
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Old 30.06.2019, 08:51
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

Opening the windows is nice in the countryside / mountains. But if you are going on Intercity and pass through the tunnels, the air is very toxic. I was stuck on one of the older trains once that had a broken window, was awful. SBB should just turn the air on and keep it on.
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Old 30.06.2019, 10:32
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

From backdoor to garden shed?

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Actually I've always walked to work, both in the US and here.

Tom
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Old 30.06.2019, 12:30
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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Opening the windows is nice in the countryside / mountains. But if you are going on Intercity and pass through the tunnels, the air is very toxic. I was stuck on one of the older trains once that had a broken window, was awful. SBB should just turn the air on and keep it on.
I think that it is more likely that the folks with restrictive conditions will have to opt for less risky means of transport. I think it's just stats.

The data SBB ask about during the journey measure length and occupancy of routes, the stats on asthma will be your regular Gauss curve, me thinks. So folks who have asthma usually due to ecological impact will have to be less ecological and economical than those who's immune system resists the environmental triggers. It is unfortunate, I know. Unfair.
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Old 30.06.2019, 13:53
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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The current problem SBB has though is that it is hotter inside their trains than outside.
Ok, that should never be of course

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And no possibility to open any windows.

This is simply not acceptable. One train I had to take was actually one of the really old train with no air on but with windows that were fully open. This was actually a much nice experience than the modern trains.
New train designs do not have anymore windows that can be opened by passengers. This is now the standard for a variety of reasons, here some in random order:
- safety of passengers leaning out of the windows
- preventing objects from being thrown out
- preventing access of people, rain, animals etc from windows left open
- preventing AC air from escaping
- improving aerodynamics of the train at speed > 100 km/h and reducing consumption (you can find the same suggestion in car manuals)
- less maintenance of moving parts

Of course this design assumes that AC, or at least proper ventilation, works ALL THE TIME. When this is not the case, the carriage or even the entire trainset becomes unusable.

In Zurich usually all trains have proper AC up and running. I remember that last October SBB annouced they had to reduce train compositions to do extra maintenance because AC was used way more than expected during the summer, leading to extra wear of the installations.
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  #67  
Old 30.06.2019, 14:31
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

They should be deemed unusable, I agree. This SBB doesn't follow too much though. I've been on trains several times lately where aircon has been fully out of order. In some cases it worked in other wagons so they simply opened the doors connecting the wagons 🙄.


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Ok, that should never be of course


New train designs do not have anymore windows that can be opened by passengers. This is now the standard for a variety of reasons, here some in random order:
- safety of passengers leaning out of the windows
- preventing objects from being thrown out
- preventing access of people, rain, animals etc from windows left open
- preventing AC air from escaping
- improving aerodynamics of the train at speed > 100 km/h and reducing consumption (you can find the same suggestion in car manuals)
- less maintenance of moving parts

Of course this design assumes that AC, or at least proper ventilation, works ALL THE TIME. When this is not the case, the carriage or even the entire trainset becomes unusable.

In Zurich usually all trains have proper AC up and running. I remember that last October SBB annouced they had to reduce train compositions to do extra maintenance because AC was used way more than expected during the summer, leading to extra wear of the installations.
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  #68  
Old 30.06.2019, 18:09
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

I take back what I said about good a/c.

This weekend on an IR and IC from interlaken back to Geneva with the amount of people the trains were unbearable (the windows were sweating)

You feel the a/c from the little vents but it is not sufficient. In first class it’s running at the same speed but with less bodies it’s cool in those carriages.
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Old 30.06.2019, 18:23
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

On the SBB website they clearly write that they only lower the temperatures 5 degrees below the exterior temperature. I had a friend and he said that it would have been cheaper to rent a car and more comfortable. Limiting energy use is not the sole way of reducing our climate footprint if more and more people switch to cars to enjoy AC when we have more +35 days

Dans quelle mesure les véhicules sont-ils refroidis?

En moyenne, dans les compartiments voyageurs, les CFF ne baissent la température que de cinq degrés au maximum par rapport à la température de l’air extérieur, afin de ne pas exposer les passagers à de trop grandes variations de température et de maintenir une consommation énergétique raisonnable. Il s’agit d’une norme de l’UIC, également imposée aux chemins de fer étrangers.

https://company.sbb.ch/fr/medias/dos...e-des-cff.html
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Old 30.06.2019, 21:32
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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On the SBB website they clearly write that they only lower the temperatures 5 degrees below the exterior temperature.
This is correct. Not just from the point of view of energy saving, but also for the confort of passengers.

Today I had a walk in Zurich and my t-shirt was all sweat, then I took a train in Stadelhofen. I was afraid the air would be too cold and I would get a flu, but luckily it was just cooler and drier; I felt better than outside, without feeling coldness.

The problem might be that the 5 degrees less MUST be provided together with a sensible decrease in humidity, and good oxygen content. 15 degrees less and 90% humidity would bring zero confort.

Just as reference, I worked for a couple of weeks under the sun of New Mexico in June, when temperature easily reached 42 Celsius. I was lifting weights wearing long trousers and long sleeves. And I was more confortable than today in Bellevue.
The secret? We had 3% humidity. Yes: three!
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Old 30.06.2019, 23:13
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

Comfort aside, humidity affects hygiene, especially important in public transport... That's also why in populated cities like Tokyo and Hong Kong, AC is very important when ppl are bunched together shoulder to shoulder...

Not the case yet in switzerland but nope, no touchy to those sweat covered handrails/buttons/seats...
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  #72  
Old 01.07.2019, 10:22
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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...Today I had a walk in Zurich and my t-shirt was all sweat, then I took a train in Stadelhofen. I was afraid the air would be too cold and I would get a flu, but luckily it was just cooler and drier; I felt better than outside, without feeling coldness.
It's a myth that being cold or experiencing a sudden change in temperature gives you cold or flu. Colds and flu are viruses. You pick them up by breathing the air around you and touching those "sweat covered handrails/buttons/seats".

For me, 5 degrees is not a sufficient change when it is already 35 or more outside. It was more than 44 in France the other day, and you'd argue that 39 is a comfortable and acceptable temp in a closed tube?
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  #73  
Old 01.07.2019, 10:26
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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For me, 5 degrees is not a sufficient change when it is already 35 or more outside. It was more than 44 in France the other day, and you'd argue that 39 is a comfortable and acceptable temp in a closed tube?
Maybe it's a perceived coolness. If you went from a 35C outside temp to a 23-25C train, it would be quite a shock. Dropping the temperature by 5C feels cooler, then you don't feel the heat wall quite so much when you step out again.

I don't suffer from any respiratory issues myself but I can imagine if you went from heatwave temps outside to a drop of 10-15C inside, it might trigger some kind of attack.
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Old 01.07.2019, 10:58
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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It's a myth that being cold or experiencing a sudden change in temperature gives you cold or flu. Colds and flu are viruses. You pick them up by breathing the air around you and touching those "sweat covered handrails/buttons/seats".
:
I keep giving myself face palms when I read these comments. I'm surprised the myth is still so common. Scientists/researchers rarely reach consensus on many things, but there is an overwhelming consensus, to the point you can take them as facts that: Vaccines don't cause autism, smoking causes cancer/heart disease, the world isn't flat, global warming due to human activity is real, 2+3=5, and colds/flu are caused by viruses, not change in temperature.
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Old 01.07.2019, 11:25
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

The 'cold' myth can be pepertuated by the factor of wrong timing.

Germs are around all he time (btw your keyboard, cell screen or 10fr bill you just held will be mankier than public transport or a public toilet door handle, probably).

The immune system can get too busy by whatever we unecessary elements we expose it to and prioritize the way we do not wish. If your work gets too ACed for your system for whatever reason while the constant germs are present at all times, sure beans some people get a reaction maybe more so than if the temps were ambient, etc.

It is like drinking ice cold drinks. It cools us for a sec but then puts a strain on the system to balance off the temps, one can get hotter. I sweat more soon after cold shower, in hot temps.

Some people actually do get tonsilitis more likely if they eat a lot of ice-cream. It's the combo of their particular flora and temps. Others stove off throat troubles by eating ice-cream because cold temps de-circulate blood from veins.

There are no myths, just stats and the fact that we often do not know about suseptibilities.

SBB decided that trains on time or even being available is a higher priority than comfort levels, I think they are entitled to do so. They will not change their stats without hearing from unsatisfied clients, so signal it to them.
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Old 01.07.2019, 11:36
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

SBB are breaching their contract with their passengers. The contract in a nutschell states that the passenger pays the fare. In return the SBB brings the passenger to destination comfortably and safely.


SBB are then breaching the contract in that they deliberately refuse to mantain acceptable safety conditions (temperature at max. 25 C) inside their vehicles ( probably in order to cut costs) and getting away with this.


On the other hand passengers who breach the contract (e.g. by entering the train without a valid ticket) can be fined.


And people keep saying that Switzerland is a democratic country...
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  #77  
Old 01.07.2019, 11:39
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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SBB are breaching their contract with their passengers. The contract in a nutschell states that the passenger pays the fare. In return the SBB brings the passenger to destination comfortably and safely.


SBB are then breaching the contract in that they deliberately refuse to mantain acceptable safety conditions (temperature at max. 25 C) inside their vehicles ( probably in order to cut costs) and getting away with this.


On the other hand passengers who breach the contract (e.g. by entering the train without a valid ticket) can be fined.


And people keep saying that Switzerland is a democratic country...

I suggest you sue them
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Old 01.07.2019, 11:40
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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SBB are then breaching the contract in that they deliberately refuse to mantain acceptable safety conditions (temperature at max. 25 C) inside their vehicles ( probably in order to cut costs) and getting away with this.
We can agree or disagree that 25° is the absolute measure of comfortable temperature. But from there, to say:

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And people keep saying that Switzerland is a democratic country...
That's a big non sequitur. It seems you have other issues with the country, and you're venting in the wrong thread.
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Old 01.07.2019, 11:43
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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SBB are then breaching the contract in that they deliberately refuse to mantain acceptable safety conditions (temperature at max. 25 C)
From a legal point of view, this "condition" is never mentioned in any "SBB contract" nor Swiss law, in addition of being against international engineering and health standards (as it is written).
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Old 01.07.2019, 11:52
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Re: SBB refuses to cool down trains in heat wave

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SBB are breaching their contract with their passengers. The contract in a nutschell states that the passenger pays the fare. In return the SBB brings the passenger to destination comfortably and safely.


SBB are then breaching the contract in that they deliberately refuse to mantain acceptable safety conditions (temperature at max. 25 C) inside their vehicles ( probably in order to cut costs) and getting away with this.


On the other hand passengers who breach the contract (e.g. by entering the train without a valid ticket) can be fined.


And people keep saying that Switzerland is a democratic country...
Are there actually ANY countries which have a "contract with passengers" to keep the temperature below 25C?

It must be a legal minefield having to determine that all passengers are "comfortable".
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