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Old 17.07.2019, 09:40
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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I have a roadbike and I like cars… but I can assure you that not all road bikers go 40-50 km/h. Yes, no car should overtake in a blind corner, but I have seen myself, a rather less agressive driver, getting increasingly annoyed by middle aged overweight guys wearing spandex and going 20 literally meters next to a damn cycling lane specifically made for them. But its not for them, obviously cause they have a carbon fiber road bike...

Yes, traffic is about tolerance towards others, especially weaker members. But that includes a healthy dose of self-awareness. And I must say that on average I see cyclists break by far the most traffic rules, even basic ones like running red lights or rushing through pedestrian areas.
There is nothing you have said that I disagree with (except perhaps that this middle aged slow overweight spandex guy is a bit of a stereotype). I am only saying that imposing laws that require all cyclists use all cycle lanes at all times is not a workable solution.
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Old 17.07.2019, 09:47
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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I am only saying that imposing laws that require all cyclists use all cycle lanes at all times is not a workable solution.
But, but, but .... there are. See post #5 https://www.englishforum.ch/3083408-post5.html

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So upload a pic to the site.
I was there yesterday, but the Institution has changed a bit. Have to check again as it involves a private street.
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Old 17.07.2019, 09:53
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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But, but, but .... there are. See post #5 https://www.englishforum.ch/3083408-post5.html
Well, this is fine in 90% of cases but not all. Good to know though.
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Old 17.07.2019, 10:06
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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I am only saying that imposing laws that require all cyclists use all cycle lanes at all times is not a workable solution.
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But, but, but .... there are. See post #5 https://www.englishforum.ch/3083408-post5.html
The thing is that that law as written (and I looked at the French version as well to be sure) is ambiguous and self-contradictory.

"Cyclists must use cycle paths or lanes" taken literally would actually mean that they weren't allowed to use roads at all unless there was a specific lane marked, which is clearly a nonsense. What happens when a cycle lane comes to an end? Does the cyclist then have to completely disappear? No, clearly he's allowed to use the road where no lanes exist as well.

So the only interpretation that makes any sense is that when there is such a lane marked on the road, cyclists must use it, which is fair enough, and not what's being discussed here. Nothing about it could be taken to mean that they're not allowed to use the road if an alternative cycle path is available.
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Old 17.07.2019, 10:51
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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I also think that it should be law that when a cycle lane exists it should be illegal to cycle on the road. Anyone try to drive around lake Zug recently and been stuck behind (almost always) an elderly gentleman in full lycra who thinks he is on the Tour de France. It's hugely frustrating for motorists, dangerous for cyclists and I have almost had several crashes recently when motorists have overtaken cyclists on blind corners, directly into my path.

Rant over
Technically, the route around Lake Zug hasn't any cycling lane apart from the road itself. It has a large sidewalk where cyclist are allowed to use it.

https://www.google.ch/maps/@47.14101...7i13312!8i6656

Image is blured but it shows something like this:



It's not a cycling lane and e-bikes/mofas are forbidden to drive on them because they're too fast. Many cyclist go there but don't expect a 40-50 km/h road-cyclist to use it.
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Old 17.07.2019, 11:09
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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I have a roadbike and I like cars
Interesting choice of words.
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Old 17.07.2019, 11:09
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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So the only interpretation that makes any sense is that when there is such a lane marked on the road, cyclists must use it, which is fair enough, and not what's being discussed here. Nothing about it could be taken to mean that they're not allowed to use the road if an alternative cycle path is available.
Correct. Cyclist can cycle anywhere where it is not forbidden. If there is a cycle path or cycle lane next to a road they must use them.

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It's not a cycling lane and e-bikes/mofas are forbidden to drive on them because they're too fast. Many cyclist go there but don't expect a 40-50 km/h road-cyclist to use it.
Which means the cyclist is allowed on the road, and the riding on the side walk is a non-mandatory option.
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Old 17.07.2019, 12:05
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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Technically, the route around Lake Zug hasn't any cycling lane apart from the road itself. It has a large sidewalk where cyclist are allowed to use it.

https://www.google.ch/maps/@47.14101...7i13312!8i6656

Image is blured but it shows something like this:



It's not a cycling lane and e-bikes/mofas are forbidden to drive on them because they're too fast. Many cyclist go there but don't expect a 40-50 km/h road-cyclist to use it.
The picture you posted is not "around lake Zug" it is a small part of that.

I'm a biker and driver and I absolutely use the bike path whenever possible. Out of respect for others, for the law and out of self-preservation. I see many other bikers do so, however there are really the inevitable stereotypes ("professionals" in full gear) that regularly mess up the traffic by biking on the road even when there is a bike lane.

Arguments like "the bike lane is bad" or "some bikes go x km/h" are applicable to cars as well, yet you don't see cars hogging or parked on bike lanes. For some reason some bikers seem to think they're more entitled than others. Next time you do this, think about the fact that maybe at the end of the huge queue of cars behind you there's an ambulance rushing somewhere, or someone whose child is sick or has a general kind of emergency and you riding 20km/h on a 80km/h road could have serious consequences.

Having said the above, I generally don't bother with inconsiderate cyclists and just wait to safely overtake, as I'm probably not going to teach them manners at their age. However, on the rare occasion that one reserves the right to cycle in the middle of the lane (yes, I've had that happen a few times even on mountain passes, joy!) I also reserve the right to thoroughly wash my windscreen after passing them.

Last edited by jmf; 17.07.2019 at 13:36.
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  #29  
Old 17.07.2019, 13:01
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

You could also think of it in another way if you make a couple of changes to your diatribe:

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Next time you drive through the Gotthard tunnel, think about the fact that maybe at the end of the huge queue of cars behind you there's an ambulance rushing somewhere, or someone whose child is sick or has a general kind of emergency and you driving rather than taking the train could have serious consequences.
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Old 17.07.2019, 13:06
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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Correct. Cyclist can cycle anywhere where it is not forbidden. If there is a cycle path or cycle lane next to a road they must use them.
Do you know of anyone who has been actually been prosecuted for not using a cycle path and instead cycling on an otherwise-legal-for-them road?
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Old 17.07.2019, 13:33
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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Just a quick check if I did not brake something: Still 26 cantons, CH not part of the EU nor the UN, and Michael Jordan is the 46th president of the United States?
Sorry. Looks like I messed some things up with my time travel shenanigans.

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Do you know of anyone who has been actually been prosecuted for not using a cycle path and instead cycling on an otherwise-legal-for-them road?
No. But it can be fined with CHF 30. See No. 621.1 and 621.2 in the "price list"
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#app1
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  #32  
Old 17.07.2019, 13:33
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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You could also think of it in another way if you make a couple of changes to your diatribe:
Nice strawman argument you got there. Maybe I should also think about it next time I take the train, or walk or hell, go to the bathroom?

On a serious note though, there seems to always be someone driving 60km/h through the Gotthard instead of the 80km/h allowed.
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Old 17.07.2019, 13:40
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

It is interesting how these discussions always end up with one group feeling under siege and coming up with all kinds of more or less valid (and sometimes outright stupid) arguments for justifying their behavior.
Similar discussion can be had about where you are allowed to smoke.

Does it not in the end simply reflect that we refuse to show consideration to others because we are all so "entitled" and me me me first oriented?

No matter if its the cyclist that refuses to drive on a path that does not allow for 120% carbon-driven performance or for a driver that has to wait for 10 seconds before passing a bike.

Last edited by pwiese; 17.07.2019 at 13:55.
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  #34  
Old 17.07.2019, 14:51
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

What's interesting is that in this case the line is not clear-cut. Most people both drive a car and also ride a bike. It would be interested to know if the supporters of the "bikes can go anywhere" argument are also drivers and if/how often they're stuck in a huge queue behind others such as themselves, as well as what they think when they finally see who's causing the queue.
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Old 17.07.2019, 15:08
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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What's interesting is that in this case the line is not clear-cut. Most people both drive a car and also ride a bike. It would be interested to know if the supporters of the "bikes can go anywhere" argument are also drivers and if/how often they're stuck in a huge queue behind others such as themselves, as well as what they think when they finally see who's causing the queue.
I'm a cyclist and a car driver I always give cyclists a wide berth when overtaking and don't have a problem with them cycling on the road as I do it too when the cycle paths are not up to scratch or full of pedestrians.

There are selfish cyclists - those who cycle two or more abreast on a busy road and those that go across pedestrian crossings when they are in use.
That happened to me yesterday evening when I was crossing one with my kids but that was one incident and I've lost count of the number of times when a car has driven over that same crossing when I am either waiting or actually crossing.

If I believe I am blocking the traffic, I'll find a safe place to pull over and let it pass. I do that on my bike, or in my car. (it may be a local who wants to pass who knows that particular mountain road better than me).
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Old 17.07.2019, 15:40
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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What's interesting is that in this case the line is not clear-cut. Most people both drive a car and also ride a bike. It would be interested to know if the supporters of the "bikes can go anywhere" argument are also drivers and if/how often they're stuck in a huge queue behind others such as themselves, as well as what they think when they finally see who's causing the queue.
I'm a driver and cyclist. And I do support the fact that bikes can co anywhere they want as long as it is permitted and the traffic rules are respected.

As a cyclist, I do realize that a car sometimes slows down I do apreciate his patience for the 10 seconds he waited for a save over-take. I do the same as a driver.

I don't understand why it so dificult for certain drivers to overtake a cyclist... How the hell do they overtake a 10 km/h tractor? Is is really that hard?

Cyclist occupying the middle of the lane on purpose is just a jerk and I've never seen that
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Old 17.07.2019, 15:50
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

I think the argument is more around the fact of cyclists causing queues during rush hour. I'm pretty sure that nobody (myself included) has a problem waiting 10 seconds to overtake a cyclist (or whatever really), but when you have to wait minutes or tens of minutes (because of traffic, roundabouts, traffic lights compounding the problem) just because the cyclist can't be bothered to use the dedicated lane built especially for his comfort, then yea...
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Old 17.07.2019, 16:13
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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I think the argument is more around the fact of cyclists causing queues during rush hour.
I don't know where you drive during rush hour, but beyond the odd ten seconds or so, perhaps one red light, I've never seen any queues caused by cyclists. I suggest that the drivers getting annoyed by cyclists are the ones who have a problem, not the cyclists themselves.

Oh, and yes, I'm a driver and a cyclist (and a motorcyclist for many years too). There are cyclists who jump red lights, which annoys me because it gives everyone a bad name, there are cyclists (in Basel, at least) who meander across traffic to turn left without looking or signalling, and there are the vast majority of cyclists who (mostly) obey the rules and neither annoy nor inconvenience other traffic. But cyclists causing traffic queues? Naah, I don't see it.
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Old 17.07.2019, 16:20
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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Cyclist occupying the middle of the lane on purpose is just a jerk and I've never seen that
On narrow country roads it's considered good practice to enhance your visibility and safety by ensuring you keep far enough away from the edge of the road. Not the same as what you're saying, but I've known car drivers get annoyed by it all the same - the same ones who think a 10cm gap when passing is sufficient, generally.
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Old 17.07.2019, 16:23
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Re: A friendly reminder about cycling on the Autobahn.

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There is nothing you have said that I disagree with (except perhaps that this middle aged slow overweight spandex guy is a bit of a stereotype). I am only saying that imposing laws that require all cyclists use all cycle lanes at all times is not a workable solution.
Workable being determined by what the cyclist deems "workable" on his subjective terms.

Terms like "it's not a workable solution that I do a 20 min commute instead of a 15 or a 10 min one".

By that token, motorcyclists should start filtering, using bus lanes, and running red lights, because "imposing law that require all motorcyclists abide by all posted signs at all times is not a workable solution".


This is what bugs people. This is what others and I are calling entitlement. The fact that someone "needs" or "wants" something does not give them the right to do whatever the f* they want. When they do, other people get UPSET.


BTW I too have been a cyclist, and I have done a few commutes on bicycles when studying and working in Zurich.
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