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  #41  
Old 09.01.2020, 11:37
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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who judges then who is at fault for minor bumps? i thought it is between the 2 insurance companies to sort this out once the forms are filled by both parties and signed.
In my experience where someone smacked the wing-mirror, it was the other person's insurance company which paid for ours and the other party's damage. Nobody admitted blame, no police involved. Insurance company decision. YMMV

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And by your post, are you suggesting it is better to call the police even for minor bumps (especially if you think you are not at fault)
Ummm... nope. To recap:

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...No, you don't need to call the police for every minor bump,...
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  #42  
Old 09.01.2020, 11:40
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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So a tyre blows due to some small unseen bits of debris on the road and there is a minor accident, the vehicle is in perfect condition and the driver driving 100% correct, who will the police blame?

If they were small bits, it would NOT be a catastrophic blow out but a slow puncture and as most modern cars (since 2010 ?) have tyre pressure sensors the driver would be advised via a warning light/noise on the dashboard.


If the driver had a blow out which would result from hitting something quite large, possibly at speed, then he would be deemed as driving without due care and attention.



You have to drive to allow yourself the time to react and stop in the case of need.



Having a blow out and causing an accident, what is the difference between this and a child running out in the road unexpectedly ?



Both are accidents and avoidable if you drive according to prevailing conditions and avoid debis in the road.

Last edited by Today only; 09.01.2020 at 12:08. Reason: Edit for waht Ace1 pointed out ! Tks
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  #43  
Old 09.01.2020, 11:40
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

Calling the police is an option in all accidents, but best avoided if possible (and nobody's hurt, no damage to property, etc.).

As detailed, it will often result on a prosecution, so being apologetic and verbally accepting blame at the roadside can be a good idea if it stops the other party getting the police involved. If it's clearly not the other party's fault, as in the OP here, then there's nothing to lose (in fact there's nothing to lose anyway) by doing this, and a possible fine and ban to gain.

Of course, some aggrieved parties may feel the need to call police to administer punishment if they feel that you've been reckless - not much you can do about it, but for that reason it's worthwhile remaining calm and non-accusatory just to avoid inflaming the situation.
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  #44  
Old 09.01.2020, 11:42
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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Having a blow out and causing an accident, what is the difference between this and a child running out in the road unexpectedly ?
Isn't there a thread on here from ages back where a motorist was punished because he hit a pedestrian on the Autobahn who was LYING DOWN in the dark?

I'll have to search it out.

It was a wild ride of a thread, if I recall...

EDIT here it is.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 09.01.2020 at 11:45. Reason: Found it.
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  #45  
Old 09.01.2020, 11:45
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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if the police are called then someone is going to get a fine and a ban, it is the way

If you are driving and you crash someone is to blame, unless something like a deer jumps in front of you, from bushes, and you didn't swerve.

A friend skidded on ice on a mountain road a few years ago, scrapped the barrier and bounced into rock, no one hurt, no one else involved, police came, huge fine and 3 month driving ban, reason was they said she was driving too fast
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  #46  
Old 09.01.2020, 11:54
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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So a tyre blows due to some small unseen bits of debris on the road and there is a minor accident, the vehicle is in perfect condition and the driver driving 100% correct, who will the police blame?
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If they were small bits, it would [not] be a catastrophic blow out but a slow puncture and as most modern cars (since 2010 ?) have tyre pressure sensors the driver would be advised via a warning light/noise on the dashboard.
I've only once had (a couple of years ago, modern car, almost new tyres) an immediate deflation at motorway speeds, from a bolt on the road, that's as close is you'll get to a "blowout" on modern tyres. Noise, vibration through steering wheel, feeling of looseness in steering, warning light, in that order I think, but all more or less immediate, within a second or so. Hazards on, continue past a motorway merging from my right, and pull up safely on hard shoulder in around 300m. No drama.

Fact is, the concept of a "catastrophic blowout" causing an accident is something that's firmly rooted back in the days of non-steel-belted tyres - these days it's just not going to happen.

As you say, hitting a large object is different, but in such cases it's the impact that would most likely be deemed to cause the loss of control, not the tyre deflation itself.

Last edited by Guest; 09.01.2020 at 14:02. Reason: punctuation
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  #47  
Old 09.01.2020, 12:03
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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The insurance forms just detail the facts of the accident.

No, you don't need to call the police for every minor bump, you just exchange details and complete the form. All of it can (and should) be done without admitting blame by either party.

Go ahead and do it, though, if you feel the need.
I wrote and signed a paper some days ago in Germany in which I fully accepted the blame (no doubt for both parties it was my fault) alternative would have been the other party calling the police which would cost me even more money and time.

It is stupid to take the blame when there is doubt or some things are unclear, but when there is no doubt left there is no harm in doing so.

OP drove through red, without an admission of guilt I also would have called the police.
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  #48  
Old 09.01.2020, 13:31
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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Not admitting blame is not the same as being deceptive.

Most insurance companies advise that parties exchange only details at the scene of the accident and don't enter into any kind of admission or discussion.

Nothing deceptive about it. Just procedure.

EDIT - this gives a bit of context.
I was referring to denying guilt to the authorities/insurance, not to the person you have an accident and swap details with. But yes, otherwise I get what you mean.
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  #49  
Old 09.01.2020, 13:34
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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I was referring to admitting guilt to the authorities/insurance, not to the person you have an accident and swap details with. But yes, otherwise I get what you mean.
when you fill out the 'proper' claim form it does ask who you think was to blame
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  #50  
Old 09.01.2020, 13:39
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

Admitting guilt to the authorities is even more stupid.

I do not know what 'proper' form bigblue2 is using but the standardized European Accident Report Form explicitly mention that it there is not admission of guilt. There is not even a box for that. Best is to simply state the facts and let insurance sort it out.
https://www.nbi-ngf.ch/de/nvb/dokume...nfallprotokoll
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  #51  
Old 09.01.2020, 13:41
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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Admitting guilt to the authorities is even more stupid.

I do not know what 'proper' form bigblue2 is using but the standardized European Accident Report Form explicitly mention that it there is not admission of guilt. There is not even a box for that. Best is to simply state the facts and let insurance sort it out.
https://www.nbi-ngf.ch/de/nvb/dokume...nfallprotokoll
the form your insurance co. send you when you tell them you've crashed where you have to do the nice sketches etc etc
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  #52  
Old 09.01.2020, 13:46
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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Admitting guilt to the authorities is even more stupid.

I do not know what 'proper' form bigblue2 is using but the standardized European Accident Report Form explicitly mention that it there is not admission of guilt. There is not even a box for that. Best is to simply state the facts and let insurance sort it out.
https://www.nbi-ngf.ch/de/nvb/dokume...nfallprotokoll
What I mean and likely didn't write clearly enough is changing/manipulating your story to actively try and avoid guilt or punishment. It should anyway be pretty obvious to any experienced traffic police whether you are fault or not when you tell them the details of the accident.
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  #53  
Old 09.01.2020, 13:53
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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What I mean and likely didn't write clearly enough is changing/manipulating your story to actively try and avoid guilt or punishment. It should anyway be pretty obvious to any experienced traffic police whether you are fault or not when you tell them the details of the accident.
A police person is not a judge. A police person can at most file criminal charges against you and give a report to the insurances. Furthermore, civil law and criminal law guilt are two separate things. You can be guilty in one case but acquitted in the other. See O.J. Simpson for a particular extreme case.
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  #54  
Old 09.01.2020, 13:56
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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A police person is not a judge. A police person can at most file criminal charges against you and give a report to the insurances. Furthermore, civil law and criminal law guilt are two separate things. You can be guilty in one case but acquitted in the other. See O.J. Simpson for a particular extreme case.
Yes they are not judges but could you not still give a false statement and thus manipulate the police report which may then have an influence on the insurance decision?
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  #55  
Old 09.01.2020, 14:05
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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Yes they are not judges but could you not still give a false statement and thus manipulate the police report which may then have an influence on the insurance decision?
As long as you do not blame any one else you, the accused, can make as much false statements as you wish.
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  #56  
Old 09.01.2020, 15:11
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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Yes they are not judges but could you not still give a false statement and thus manipulate the police report which may then have an influence on the insurance decision?
fortunately the swiss police just take the facts, backed up with pictures, and present that to the court, most accidents are pretty clear cut, if they relied on the statements of the people involved I would have been hung, drawn and quartered a few months back
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  #57  
Old 09.01.2020, 16:17
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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More or less the same happened to me. Accident because of skidding on ice. No other cars involved. Police was called by the only people who stopped and came to look for/after me: two policemen on their way home after work - lucky me and I mean that. Police had to write a report because I had to spend a night at the hospital otherwise they would not have done it > no report > no cost, no fine. Thus, cost including fine for "not being in control of my car" was approx. CHF 1000. 2 years on probation. No license ban (Kt. Aargau).
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Exactly this - happened to me. Was alone on road no other cars involved and no one got hurt but my car had to be removed. Insurance sorted those costs but I got a fine for not driving appropriately. I had zero priors so got away with the fine. This was 8 years ago and it was 800 CHF.
This is a very concerning part of living in Switzerland, that from a legal perspective there is no such thing as an accident. Blame always has to be appropriated. I've known of someone even receiving a fine for falling off their push bike without injury or damage to anyone else, madness!

Fortunately until now I've never run into such issues, but I'm aware that this sort of thing can happen to anyone. Best always to keep some money aside in the unfortunate event it happens to you!
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Old 09.01.2020, 16:23
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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This is a very concerning part of living in Switzerland, that from a legal perspective there is no such thing as an accident. Blame always has to be appropriated. I've known of someone even receiving a fine for falling off their push bike without injury or damage to anyone else, madness!
It's still an accident, even if someone is to blame. If both parties are to blame then it makes sense and is fair that it is apportioned appropriately.

The fine for a bike accident is because the rider was riding without due care and attention. If they were fined they must have been attended to by at least the police or maybe an ambulance because if you just fall off your bike on a deserted street with no injury or damage, how are you going to be fined?

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Fortunately until now I've never run into such issues, but I'm aware that this sort of thing can happen to anyone. Best always to keep some money aside in the unfortunate event it happens to you!
Lucky for you. If you have personal insurance and you are covered for accidents then it should cover most eventualities.
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Old 09.01.2020, 16:29
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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It's still an accident, even if someone is to blame. If both parties are to blame then it makes sense and is fair that it is apportioned appropriately.

The fine for a bike accident is because the rider was riding without due care and attention. If they were fined they must have been attended to by at least the police or maybe an ambulance because if you just fall off your bike on a deserted street with no injury or damage, how are you going to be fined?

Lucky for you. If you have personal insurance and you are covered for accidents then it should cover most eventualities.
Does accident insurance cover police fines? I doubt it does.

They slipped off their bike on some ice. Passer by called an ambulance and the police turned up out of the blue. Nice fine to go with grazed and bruised legs (and ego)! Fining someone for falling of their bike where no one else is involved and no damage has been done is just plain wrong!
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Old 09.01.2020, 16:32
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Re: Road accident - need help and advice

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Does accident insurance cover police fines? I doubt it does.
That's why I said "most" eventualities.


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They slipped off their bike on some ice. Passer by called an ambulance and the police turned up out of the blue. Nice fine to go with grazed and bruised legs (and ego)! Fining someone for falling off their bike where no one else is involved and no damage has been done is just plain wrong!
OK, so it's an anecdote but there is probably more to it. People don't tend to call ambulances for grazed legs but, hey, sounds like neither you nor I were there.

I've heard a similar story but, dig a bit deeper and there's more to it.
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