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  #21  
Old 14.01.2020, 22:06
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Re: Car incident

Pretty much.... as you can even see in this thread I find this whole thing rather accusatory.

As you can see people have wrote about 50 different scenarios I should have thought of 10 seconds or so of time.
Which is why I'm not getting why it's such a gross offense or misconduct to begin with...

Ha... I'm feeling a bit like Captain Sully.

Like I said, O-K if they would have said 16a and "coulda woulda shoulda"me and made it so I cannot have another one of these with no consequence. SURE-- fair if it's not as clear as someone cutting my brakes. Whatever.
But it's anything but simple and the fact alone they were so interested in finding a fault on my part was rather strange to me (regards to the phone accusation).
Seems like a glorified witch hunt so they can scare people from claiming insurance or so... but the cost of the car was so little I was better off keeping the death trap finance wise.

I don't think they have the grounds--- I'll take it up with a lawyer.
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  #22  
Old 14.01.2020, 22:16
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Re: Car incident

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this car was well looked after
Apparently not:

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my car was erratically flashing hazard lights (like my engine light and several others). In true horror story fashion, my brakes seemed strangely weaker.
Tom
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  #23  
Old 14.01.2020, 22:36
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Re: Car incident

You lost control of your vehicle, the police were called, tough.

Do what you want, get a lawyer, get 2 lawyers, the result is the same.

It was unfortunate the police got involved, for you.

Smile, accept the punishment and move on.

If the car wasn’t roadworthy, the punishment would be considerably more. It is your responsibility to maintain your vehicle to a roadworthy standard according to current legislation.
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Old 14.01.2020, 23:10
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Re: Car incident

Different country, but in the UK there are certain aspects of a car's condition that are always the driver's responsibility and there is no defence. For example, under-inflated (not flat) tyres.

Perhaps that's the law here.
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Old 15.01.2020, 00:04
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Re: Car incident

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Apparently not:



Tom
So now you allude that I didn't look after the car?
You are aware that machines spontaneously malfunction? That preventative measures can and should be taken but are not always 100 percent? Not getting why you see the need to troll and groan for everything I write... is it personally offensive or SO unheard of?


Not understanding your logic in the slightest. When an airplane goes down due to a mechanical error it's not solely the pilots problem... it's the manufacturer.
Sorry to be so extreme... but if someone went and cut your brakes... it's also not YOUR fault even though you were hazardous to others. The law would require each one of us to have a crystal ball over various circumstances beyond our control.

Neglect is neglect sure... but if a governmental agency AND a mechanic deem the car fit to drive, the car functioned normally every day BUT that day, it makes no sense why the liability would fall entirely on the owner with the faulty car.

Maybe, I could have put the handbrake on. Maybe I shouldn't have. Maybe on a curve on a busy highway should have pulled into the field and checked these lights...(thats also problematic) But it's not exactly a no-stress regular situation...

Anyway... car sold to insurance. No idea where it is. Probably scrap metal heaven. The insurance more or less took care of everything start to finish as did the police (I suppose).
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  #26  
Old 15.01.2020, 00:17
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Re: Car incident

Again, in the scheme of things I don't think I'm expecting a lot here.
Just a bit of a more reasonable ruling...
A fine, fee, and warning with no revocation.
And to make sure the police documented my case right as my report and the police seem to be night and day.

No one died. No one was injured. No one was reckless as it requires intent. It should be a "minor"offense. Even if I was considered fully at fault due to outline in the law itself... this is more my annoyance out of everything is that it seems to contradict


I have taken the nice route and talked to them about this politely where they at least seemed open to re-thinking and are still decision making.. (more confusion on this rogue letter from the SVG). The office said at "Strassen.."said they would like to give me the lowest possible punishment, perhaps even less pending this criminal investigation.
Perhaps I have some more luck and another life in my "9"
Anyway, thank you all for your help.
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  #27  
Old 15.01.2020, 00:24
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Re: Car incident

Well despite Ace1 telling it as it is in the 2nd reply, and all the ultra responsible EF drivers chipping in with what to do in an emergency, I'll play the role of layman prosecutor/Devil's advocate/over zealous, anti-American Swiss prosector/English Forum Legal Eagle/Witch Hunter, with what you've said, and possibly miss-quote you.

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Bottom line, I collided with the vehicle in front of me whilst going down hill.
...... Lets say I am at fault
Let's do that, because it is.

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I took ownership of this.... I was not on my phone.....Willingly subjected myself to a drug and alcohol test. Of course, 100 percent clean......I certainly wasn't intoxicated. I've had a squeaky clean driving and criminal record.
You don't get brownie points for not being on the phone or drunk, it's a kind of minimum standard that you are neither.

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everything went flying on impact........only significant damage to two old cars
What sort of impact speed are we looking at? Age of the car is irrelevant, significant damage is. Sounds like both write offs.

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NOTHING with the car investigation they promised me... No report of them actually investigating my car with a mechanic which the brand has had quite a few problems with the exact things I mentioned (brakes, and lack of airbag immediate on impact) even a google search can quickly validate this.
Fingers crossed there then, because if they do find anything wrong with the car, they'll use that to prosecute you further. They won't investigate to absolve you of responsibility, if that's what you are thinking, that would be up to you to do to defend yourself in court, if you blame the car for the collision.

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I claimed in my report I was distracted due to the state of my car... WHY is there even a "case?"
You've admitted driving without due care and attention (...I was distracted). That's were the 16b is coming from. (I could have kept the whole post down to that one quote, but there is no fun in that)

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I guess my next step is to lawyer up
Go for it! Do you not have legal insurance with the car insurance policy?

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Driving, you're trying to avoid exactly something like this so you're paying more attention to the road.
So how did you drive into the car infront?

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There was not SO much time to respond..........they went off around a curve... Next I was down hill......10 seconds or so of time.
Which is why I'm not getting why it's such a gross offense or misconduct to begin with...
10 seconds is a loooong time to brake/significantly slow down. And a very, very long time to be distracted. 150 meters?

This is the peach though:
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but the cost of the car was so little I was better off keeping the death trap finance wise.
I rest my case, m'lud. Sounds like you knew it was below par to be honest.
When was it last serviced?
It really sounds like you're driving an old beater, and have not looked after it. You've had a crash, maybe you were distracted by the dashboard, but you refuse to take responsibility for your actions.

Unfortunately, it's black and white. You drove into someone, ergo, you are at fault, and nothing on earth is going to change that.
Fingers crossed for you the delay is not caused by them doing a vehicle inspection, because how on earth is a fault with an old car going to be in your favour?
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  #28  
Old 15.01.2020, 00:40
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Re: Car incident

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Again, in the scheme of things I don't think I'm expecting a lot here.
Just a bit of a more reasonable ruling...
A fine, fee, and warning with no revocation.
If the penalty for driving without due care and attention is a ban, then unless you can plead some amazing extenuating circumstances, you are getting the ban.
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And to make sure the police documented my case right as my report and the police seem to be night and day.
The police report the facts. Person drives into other car, serious collision as both cars written off. Person admits they were distracted. Person claims car was defective causing to the accident. Sent to prosecutors offfice.
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Even if I was considered fully at fault due to outline in the law itself.
Now you're getting the idea, you are fully at fault, but still you are not quite there with the accepting responsibilty side of things.
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.. this is more my annoyance out of everything is that it seems to contradict
Some people just can't take responsibilty for their actions.
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I have taken the nice route and talked to them about this politely where they at least seemed open to re-thinking and are still decision making..
You are deluded. Explain what the alternative is to the nice route?
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The office said at "Strassen.."said they would like to give me the lowest possible punishment, perhaps even less pending this criminal investigation.
You keep clutching at those staws.
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  #29  
Old 15.01.2020, 08:51
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Re: Car incident

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Does your car not have a handbrake?
About 2/3 of new cars have electronic handbrakes including the current RAV4 apparently - therefore not always an emergency brake option.
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  #30  
Old 15.01.2020, 09:00
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Re: Car incident

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About 2/3 of new cars have electronic handbrakes including the current RAV4 apparently - therefore not always an emergency brake option.
Thankfully, we only own older cars with real hand brakes!

Tom
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  #31  
Old 15.01.2020, 09:03
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Re: Car incident

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You are aware that machines spontaneously malfunction?
They don't if properly maintained.

Which is why I do all of my own maintenance on my bikes.

Tom
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Old 15.01.2020, 09:30
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Re: Car incident

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They don't if properly maintained.

Which is why I do all of my own maintenance on my bikes.

Tom
Come on, you can check your bike's wires and brake pads but can you anticipate a bearing malfunction for example? Will you expect a mechanic to check all electronical systems of your car when you do your annual maintenance?
You can do all the maintenance on your vehicle and one day something will break without warning you before.

For the ¨vehicle control loss¨ :I don't know how it works on other countries but in Switzerland it is a classic penalty. Puddle of oil on the road? Keep control of your car or loose your license. Fun fact: you can be sentenced for control loss doing wheelie on a bike or perfectly handled burnout.

No worries about any criminal record, road sentences are not treated as other felonies if there is no injuries and if you do not commit a serious fault (as ignoring a traffic light, driving significantly higher than the speed limit etc...). As mentioned before, it will most probably be erased 5 years after you received the letter.
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  #33  
Old 15.01.2020, 09:30
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Re: Car incident

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They don't if properly maintained.

Which is why I do all of my own maintenance on my bikes.

Tom
Actually there were instances of brake issues coupled with spontaneous acceleration with certain Toyota Hybrids in the US. But IIRC only the US and only Hybrids which I'm pretty sure doesn't apply to the OPs car.
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  #34  
Old 15.01.2020, 10:39
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Re: Car incident

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Which also works on the rear wheels in a RWD car!
... which a RAV4 ain't.
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  #35  
Old 15.01.2020, 12:07
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Re: Car incident

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If the penalty for driving without due care and attention is a ban
BULLSHIT! Absolute unfounded bullshit.
First, a driving ban is not a penalty but just an "administrative measures". O.k. legal semantic, but still important.

Second, the best you can hope for, if found guilty in the criminal procedure, is that the license authority throw Art. 16a Abs. 4 SVG against you, which is, wait for it, nothing at all. No warning, no fees, no letter. Btw: Been there, go that. I would say it is super exceptional to get no administrative measure at all after found guilty in the criminal proceeding. But considering it happened at least once it is not impossible.

Reading various court rulings a warning (regular Art. 16a SVG) or a one month ban (Art. 16b SVG) (repeated ofender will get harsher administrative measures) from the driving license authority seem to be as likely after found guilty in the criminal proceeding. There is not much public information how often Art. 16a Abs. 4 SVG is applied after found guilty in the criminal proceeding, as certainly only a fool would object against it, so no court rulings to be found.

Now to the most important point. See the bold highlighted parts in the above paragraphs? An administrative measures such as ban or warning can normally only be issued after found guilty in the criminal proceeding. More important the driving license authority is bound by the verdict of the criminal proceeding. It can neither go lower nor can it go higher. See federal court rulings BGE 1C_345/2012 and BGE 1C_356/2009.

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The police report the facts.
But the police does not decide if it was traffic infraction. That is the job of the prosecutor or judge. So far no prosecutor or judge made a decision. So far Jgal is still innocent of any wrong doing and not (yet) found guilty.


Accepting the administrative measure as it is does only make sense if there is a fear that the criminal proceeding ends with a sentence based on Art. 90 Abs. 2 SVG (Major traffic infraction). In that case you can gamble the system as the correct administrative measures would be Art. 16c SVG which is a 3 month ban minimum. So far nothing said indicates that the incident will be classed as a major infraction.

Objecting the administrative measure on the ground that the criminal proceeding has not finished yet seems to be a good idea. Let us see what can happen.

Acquitted in criminal proceeding - No administrative measure. No fees, no fines, no problems.
Found guilty in criminal proceeding, but classed as a minor infraction. - Warning or if super lucky nothing at all. Fine and some fees.
Found guilty in criminal proceeding, classed as a medium infraction. - 1 month ban. Fine and a lot of fees.
Found guilty in criminal proceeding, classed as a major infraction. - 3 month ban. Monetary penalty, criminal record, and even more fees.

There is one unlikely outcome where the administrative measure will be more severe.
There is one outcome where the administrative measure will remain the same.
And there are two outcomes where the administrative measure will be less.

Considering that even the prosecutor was astonished that there was a driving ban issued, I am inclined to say that the prosecutor intends to class the incident as minor at most. If it is minor than a warning is the correct administrative measure.

Once again, I would object against the StVA decision simply based on the fact that the criminal proceeding is still pending.

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Can't you get the prosecutor to have a word with the Strassenverkehrsamt? For them to wait for the verdict?
That might be an idea. But in the end Jgal himself must formally object, within the stated time limit, at the correct place, against the StVA decision.

Can be as simple as: "Da das Strafverfahren in der Sache <criminal proceeding case number> bei der Staatsanwaltschaft <place of prosecutor, name of prosecutor> noch hängig und nicht abgeschlossen ist, beantrage ich den Entscheid <StVA case number> des Strassenverkehrsamtes aufzuheben, den Ausgang des ordentlichen Strafverfahren abzuwarten und gegebenfalls, gestützt auf das Ergebnis des Strafverfahren, einen neuen Entscheid zu erlassen" Date, place, signature.

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I guess my next step is to lawyer up-- any one else with an experience like this?
Lawyer might be a good idea considering you did not realize that the CHF 350 bill is not a fine, but just fees.
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Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 15.01.2020 at 12:27.
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  #36  
Old 15.01.2020, 12:23
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Re: Car incident

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...........

Can be as simple as: "Da das Strafverfahren in der Sache <criminal proceeding case number> bei der Staatsanwaltschaft <place of prosecutor, name of prosecutor> noch hängig und nicht abgeschlossen ist, beantrage ich den Entscheid <StVA case number> des Strassenverkehrsamtes auzuheben, den Ausgang des ordentlichen Strafverfahren abzuwarten und gegebenfalls, gestützt auf das Ergebnis des Strafverfahren, einen neuen Entscheid zu erlassen" Date, place, signature.


Lawyer might be a good idea considering you did not realize that the CHF 350 bill is not a fine, but just fees.
typo: it should be aufzuheben.
Sending it by registered mail.
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Old 15.01.2020, 13:26
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Re: Car incident

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What sort of impact speed are we looking at? Age of the car is irrelevant, significant damage is. Sounds like both write offs.
Are you are a native English speaker, Coddy?
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  #38  
Old 15.01.2020, 13:39
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Re: Car incident

Re. SwissUS: Obviously good points, the OP should not be banned before the court judgement.


But banned they will be.
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Old 15.01.2020, 15:33
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Re: Car incident

QUOTE : TOM DECH

"Come on, you can check your bike's wires and brake pads but can you anticipate a bearing malfunction for example? Will you expect a mechanic to check all electronical systems of your car when you do your annual maintenance?
UNQUOTE


Yes i do expect the mechanic to plug my cars' computer onto his diagnostic tool to check all the systems work as they should do and that their are no malfunctions.


This is why i pay him !


PS. They are all controlled at the same time, so really it isn't much work
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Old 15.01.2020, 16:51
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Re: Car incident

its all excuses anyway, op has said he was aware of issues with his make and model yet still drove it, airbags not going off is totally irrelevant, they should only go if in the event of a large impact anyway, when they do go off its nasty so probably did the op a favour.

op drove into the back of the car in front, open and shut case, move on, *if* the police do bother to examine your car, and I can't see why they would as no one was hurt, they'll find the brakes where working just fine, even if they did require a bit more effort.
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