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Old 15.01.2020, 23:59
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Re: Car incident

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Yes, actually. Quite important with vintage machines.

Tom
So you know when an ignition malfunction is going to happen without warning, or a sudden brake malfunction, I think a lot of F1 teams would like to employ you.
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  #62  
Old 16.01.2020, 02:01
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Re: Car incident

I don't know if it makes you feel any better, but my neighbour got a 500 chf fine for losing control of her car when the brakes failed. It was a fairly new car, the mechanic verified she couldn't have done anything to stop it and it was a defect.
I don't recall she lost her license, but she was really surprised to be given a fine. She drove into a pole to stop, not another car, so I imagine that helped at least.

Your situation sounds really frustrating, and I hope it clears up soon.
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  #63  
Old 16.01.2020, 11:01
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Re: Car incident

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However, I'm kinda keeping the faith that I'll be let off easy as I've been very cooperative, patient, and truthful..
Unfortunatly you won't get much credit for that. If at fault you are at fault, no mater how nice, sorry, and apologizing you are.

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.and it's not a black and white case. I'm pretty sure every party is wanting to avoid court for these reasons. Very time consuming, very expensive, and tons of argumentative points on both ends.
Expensive? As like in real life the loser has to pay the bill and court fees.

Here how it works in Switzerland: If the prosecutor comes to the conclusion that you are at fault he has two options, either bring the case to court or in "minor" (criminal law minor, not traffic law minor) cases the prosecutor can directly issue a summary penalty order (Strafbefehl/ l’ordonnance pénale) See Art. 352 Criminal Proceeding https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a352

It only goes to court if you object against the summary penalty order. You can see it as the prosecutors indictment proposal if the case goes to court.
The court is not like in the US. Scroll down on the following page to see a video how it is done: https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/gesells...richt/44155486 (Filming is not permitted in Swiss court. This a mock trial with in a real court room with real judge, typist, prosecutor, and lawyer.)

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I would be appeased if they said minor... verbal warning and off record...
and small fee because I'm not going to tit for tat with IF maybe I COULD have stopped or not WITH the failure.
Are you a minor, under 18 years old? Because a verbal warning is normally only possible in that case Art. 22 JStG https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a22.
For adults it is normally either acquitted, fine (Art. 106 Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a106 ), monetary penalty (Art. 34 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a34 ), or jail (Art. 40 Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a40 ) . The last two can be suspended (Art. 42 Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a42 ). Only under special circumstances you might be found guilty, but will not be sentenced (See Art. 52 - 53 Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a52) or you might have to do therapy instead.

Once again the possible outcome, if a traffic infraction goes to a prosecutor:
Acquitted - No administrative measure.
Fine - No administrative measure (rare, but possible).
Fine - Warning.
Fine - Driving ban.
Monetary penalty - Long driving ban.
Jail - Very long driving ban or revocation of the license.
If found guilty, but not sentenced - administrative measure according what the sentence would have been.

Just to reinforce it once more: Driving ban, warning, or no administrative measure is not decided by the prosecutor/judge but decided by driving license authority.
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Old 17.01.2020, 11:00
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Re: Car incident

Long driving ban or jail is not possible given the circumstances and the current Article they are looking to file the offense under. 16B. It's a first time offense with a maximum of 3 months driving ban... being that it's a first offense.
5000CHF is the threshold for where it's on the criminal record or not.

It's currently before a prosecutor. For whatever reason, the DMV made a decision based on an ongoing investigation before it was even finished that's why I'm already aware on how the criminal investigation is going.

I'm not a minor.... but a verbal warning is possible *with fees attached is possible with no negative effect on my license.
Article 16A is still possible. No party was hurt (besides whiplash) and the act itself could be considered a minor traffic offense.

It seems to depend on if it was minor or moderate as I've heard from the DMV it's possible it gets dismissed.
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  #65  
Old 17.01.2020, 11:02
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Re: Car incident

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No party was hurt (besides whiplash)

A whiplash is very painful....
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  #66  
Old 17.01.2020, 11:31
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Re: Car incident

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A whiplash is very painful....
True whiplash--- yes where your back or neck has been genuinely damaged.
General soreness that you're able to return to work the next day or day after is not... more of an annoyance. Not to say that any injury is nice and Im apologetic none the less.

I don't find it so easy to be sympathetic to the lady because she accused me of being on my phone totally irrationally and berated me for 5 minutes while i was still trying to get my death trap safely to the side of the road while persuading her to get out of the middle of the road where she could be run over. Then having to call the police because she wasn't driving with a phone in the compartment or purse (who is doing that). The after that had to get my phone confiscated by angry police who played off of her.
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  #67  
Old 17.01.2020, 11:47
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Re: Car incident

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I'm not a minor.... but a verbal warning is possible *with fees attached is possible with no negative effect on my license.
Based on what laws and regulations?
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  #68  
Old 17.01.2020, 11:49
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Re: Car incident

Smile an move on
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Old 17.01.2020, 12:27
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Re: Car incident

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Based on what laws and regulations?
Art. 16A There's several options for the prosecutor to pursue.
One person commented about how their friend paid a 500 fine with no license suspension.
My assumption is it was Art. 16A with monetary fee and warning.

This is the lesser of the 16 Articles which technically I qualify for.
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Old 17.01.2020, 12:32
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Re: Car incident

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I don't find it so easy to be sympathetic to the lady because she accused me of being on my phone totally irrationally and berated me for 5 minutes while i was still trying to get my death trap safely to the side of the road while persuading her to get out of the middle of the road where she could be run over. Then having to call the police because she wasn't driving with a phone in the compartment or purse (who is doing that). The after that had to get my phone confiscated by angry police who played off of her.
You are not allowed to move the vehicles until the police give you permission!

Another fine for you!

Tom
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Old 17.01.2020, 12:39
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Re: Car incident

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Smile an move on
Easier said than done. I'd like to see a smile for up to 5000CHF and your license revoked over a crap circumstance. I'm failing to see my bright sides. I just have to hope the Swiss justice system is both logical and reasonable so I can cap my fees, fines, and not get the license taken for a month.
I think the fact I have no car, and couldn't commute to a job was punishment enough for a "you could have done better". At least I am not making enough money anymore for them to claim an ungodly amount if worst comes to worst...
Lucky, unlucky.

Lol, the lady at the DMV was lovely though. She said " well you can schedule to have it taken away at a specific date...I don't see under the investigation why not...we tried to give the minimum maybe we can dismiss when the result is in "
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Old 17.01.2020, 12:48
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Re: Car incident

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You are not allowed to move the vehicles until the police give you permission!

Another fine for you!

Tom
FALSE
do you have unlimited time on your hands or so? I'm not sure where you get your information, but in no way, shape, or form is it illegal or fineable offense. I think you have to go back to driving school. The police were on scene relatively swiftly and pictures were taken immediately. No one was injured. The police asked us why we didn't move other parts sooner.You can and should steer into the hard shoulder.
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  #73  
Old 17.01.2020, 13:08
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Re: Car incident

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I'm not sure where you get your information
From the police.

Tom
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  #74  
Old 17.01.2020, 13:09
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Re: Car incident

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Art. 16A There's several options for the prosecutor to pursue.
One person commented about how their friend paid a 500 fine with no license suspension.
My assumption is it was Art. 16A with monetary fee and warning.

This is the lesser of the 16 Articles which technically I qualify for.


I thought I made my self clear. The prosecutor does not directly decide which administrative measures (Art. 16 - 16d SVG) will be applied.

The prosecutor decides if you are guilty of a traffic rule infraction or not. If not, you are acquitted, which means no fines, no fees, and specially no administrative measure as the condition of Art. 16 Abs. 2 SVG is not met.

If he thinks you are guilty he will issue a Strafbefehl based on Art. 90 Abs 1 SVG, or Art. 90 Abs 2 SVG or in serious cases of Art. 90 Abs. 2 SVG or Art. 90 Abs. 3 SVG the prosecutor will forward the case to the court (I am generally speaking, not just your case).

If you accepted and pay the Strafbefehl, our found guilty in a court (because it went directly to court or because you objected against the Strafbefehl) the verdict will be forwarded to the driving license authority (In Canton ZH this is the StVA). The StVA will decide on the appropriate administrative measure, based on all reports and prosecutor/judge verdict. If the sentence was based on Art. 90 Abs. 1 SVG, depending on wording of prosecutor/judge they can issue either Warning based on Art. 16a SVG or a ban based on Art. 16b SVG. There are two requirements which must be fulfilled that a warning can be issued. First, your guilt must be minor. Second, the risks to others must have been minor. If had least one requirement is not fulfilled Art. 16b SVG must be applied (Federal court ruling BGE 135 II 138 https://www.bger.ch/ext/eurospider/l...anks=0#page138).

In case you get acquitted in court the driving license authority are also informed. But in that case they must not issue an administrative measure of any kind. Neither warning nor ban, as the condition of Art. 16 Abs. 2 SVG is not met.

Art. 16 Abs 2 SVG reads: "After an infraction of the traffic law, where a simple fine according OBV is not possible, an administrative measure can be issued". If you are acquitted, there is no infraction of the traffic law, which means there can be no administrative measure. On the other hand, if you are guilty, the least the prosecutor can do is issue is a fine. The OBV does not contain fines for accidents. Thus, it follows that no fine but a warning is not a possible outcome.

Finally, a warning according Art. 16a SVG has impact on your driving license! An other incident within 2 years where Art. 16a SVG can be applied means a license ban of 1 month.
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Old 17.01.2020, 13:15
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Re: Car incident

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FALSE
do you have unlimited time on your hands or so? I'm not sure where you get your information, but in no way, shape, or form is it illegal or fineable offense. I think you have to go back to driving school. The police were on scene relatively swiftly and pictures were taken immediately. No one was injured. The police asked us why we didn't move other parts sooner.You can and should steer into the hard shoulder.
It is defined in Art. 56 Abs. 1 VRV
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a56
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Until the arrival of the police, the location of the accident site may only be changed in order to protect injured persons or to secure traffic. The original location should be marked on the road beforehand.
and Art. 96 VRV
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Anyone infringing the provisions of this Regulation shall be liable to a fine, unless another penal provision is applicable.
Translated using deepl.com
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  #76  
Old 17.01.2020, 13:29
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Re: Car incident

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You are not allowed to move the vehicles until the police give you permission!

Another fine for you!

Tom
That's what we learnt. But it's done all the time. It makes sense not to, yet it is not explicitly forbidden/mentioned:
admin.ch (not available in English)

on ch.ch the text is unclear, as "Sicherung des Verkehrs" basically means give the traffic a chance to pass = shift your wrecks out of the way:
<<Sie dürfen die Lage an der Unfallstelle bis zum Eintreffen der Polizei nur zum Schutz von Verletzten oder zur Sicherung des Verkehrs verändern. Wenn möglich, fotografieren Sie die ursprüngliche Lage vorher.>>
(You may change the situation at the place of accident only to protect injured people or to secure traffic. If possible take photos of the original situation)

Also on the highway the rule is clearly in favour of moving the vehicles:
<<Lenken Sie Ihr Fahrzeug wenn immer möglich sofort auf den Pannenstreifen.>>
(when ever possible, steer your vehicle to the hard shoulder )

As - once again - this is what we call a "Gummiparagraph" I suspect it's not fined.
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Old 17.01.2020, 13:46
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Re: Car incident

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As - once again - this is what we call a "Gummiparagraph" I suspect it's not fined.
If no one was injured, where police is optional, it might be a "Gummiparagraph".

In cases were people got seriously injured and police must be called by law it will be less of an "Papiertiger" and might be applied to its fullest extend in addition Art. 286 Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a286 might also apply
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Old 17.01.2020, 14:01
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Re: Car incident

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I thought I made my self clear. The prosecutor does not directly decide which administrative measures (Art. 16 - 16d SVG) will be applied.

You did, eminently clear but the OP is American with a solid sense of righteousness and she has convinced herself that she doesn't deserve a fine and therefore the whole system is shit.
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Old 17.01.2020, 14:10
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Re: Car incident

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If no one was injured, where police is optional, it might be a "Gummiparagraph".

In cases were people got seriously injured and police must be called by law it will be less of an "Papiertiger" and might be applied to its fullest extend in addition Art. 286 Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a286 might also apply
That seems far fetched to me. You mention the criminal code - while we talk traffic-law.
Moving vehicles to the side and let traffic go on I would not call "Prevention of an official act". (Doing this while the police is trying to take pictures, yes I would ).
The case you mention, with people seriously injured, nothing should be changed until the arrival of police/ambulance (who always come together in case of accidents) anyway. For the sake of the injured, unless they can still walk.
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Old 17.01.2020, 14:25
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Re: Car incident

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That seems far fetched to me. You mention the criminal code - while we talk traffic-law.
It was the traffic rules ordinance itself which brought me this nice idea
Art. 96 VRV
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Anyone infringing the provisions of this Regulation shall be liable to a fine, unless another penal provision is applicable.
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