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Old 14.01.2020, 13:45
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Car incident

So, lengthy story time

I had a car accident in Sept. where my car was erratically flashing hazard lights (like my engine light and several others). In true horror story fashion, my brakes seemed strangely weaker. Bottom line, I collided with the vehicle in front of me whilst going down hill. I took ownership of this, I explained the story to the police... who immediately tried to confront me with if I was on my phone or not. I told them how I was relatively (and I think justifiably) panicked at the time and of course I was not on my phone. I handed them over the phone willingly as everything I said was truthful. I stayed and answered several questions (over an hour long) after whacking my head on the steering wheel (Toyota airbags for ya or lack there of until i drove car to side of road). I even called the police from MY number there.
Crazy swiss person I hit tried to accuse me of being on phone----I wasn't it's just everything went flying on impact and that was relatively easy to prove. She or I (besides my face) were not injured. Willingly subjected myself to a drug and alcohol test. Of course, 100 percent clean.

SO. Just received a letter in the mail saying my driving permission is revoked for one month with a report of was not effective enough for distance and to cough up a 350 fine (police determination). NOTHING with the car investigation they promised me... no details on that--NADA. I was then kindly informed I should speak to the prosecutors office (WTH) for further details. So when I phoned they were even shocked the Strassenverkehersamt sent me a letter detailing the fine and revoked license. However, said they could not tell me any details although I had received this judgement on behalf of Zurich.

1. Do I have to worry about a criminal offense/record or jail?

Lets say I am at fault--- no injuries, only significant damage to two old cars, and no reckless driving (I was following the law I could even identify what the woman in front of me was doing in traffic and that she had been in front several mins before)

Therefore, this seems like a pretty extreme charge for a car accident.
Could understand if I had gross misconduct or something.

2. No report of them actually investigating my car with a mechanic which the brand has had quite a few problems with the exact things I mentioned (brakes, and lack of airbag immediate on impact) even a google search can quickly validate this. If they did NOT do this although I claimed in my report I was distracted due to the state of my car... WHY is there even a "case?"

This seems pretty fishy to me.
I also might have to pay court or administrative fees I heard... no one is clear on what exactly is happening. I guess my next step is to lawyer up-- any one else with an experience like this?
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Old 14.01.2020, 13:54
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Re: Car incident

Does your car not have a handbrake?
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Old 14.01.2020, 14:05
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Re: Car incident

Bottom line is very simple - you had an accident due to not being in control of the car. As such I think you've got off fairly lightly with just a one-month ban. Of course you've still got probably something in four figures to pay as well.

Yes, most people will agree that the system here is harsh and that in other countries you would not have been prosecuted, but it is what it is, and there's nothing you can do about it, so just accept it and move on. The fact that you had warning lights on and that there may have been a mechanical fault is not viewed as an excuse - quite the opposite, they would say that you should have stopped immediately they came on, and/or that you should have maintained the vehicle in a safe state, so either way the accident wouldn't have happened at all. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, that's the view that will be taken.

This offence will stay on your record for up to five years, meaning that any other serious offences in that time will result in a much harsher penalty.
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Old 14.01.2020, 14:06
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Re: Car incident

your car was going mental at you and instead of stopping straight away you hit the back of the car in front of you, pretty open and shut case from the police and courts point of view, brakes don't stop working (almost) regardless of the electrical issues, you just have to push the pedal harder or / and (as said) pull the hand brake.

If the police attend then someone is going to get a huge fine and a ban, can you argue it in court? sure, expect a bigger fine, a longer ban and some huge legal fee's.

have a look through some of the other accident posts here
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Old 14.01.2020, 14:25
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Re: Car incident

What car is that? flashing hazard lights would come on automatically when you break hard (at least on my car).
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Old 14.01.2020, 14:28
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Re: Car incident

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2. No report of them actually investigating my car [...] WHY is there even a "case?"
First you must be aware that there are two separate procedures.

A criminal procedure done by the court/prosecutor at place of the accident.
A administrative procedure done by the driving license authority of your residence canton.

Normally, the outcome of the administrative procedure depends on the outcome of the criminal procedure. In cut and clear cases the administrative procedure, specially if guilt was admitted, can be finished before the criminal procedure. You normally can request that the administrative procedure should be delayed until the criminal procedure has finished. This is specially important as there can be no administrative measures if you are fully acquitted in the criminal proceeding.

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SO. Just received a letter in the mail saying my driving permission is revoked for one month with a report of was not effective enough for distance and to cough up a 350 fine (police determination). [...]
Strassenverkehersamt sent me a letter detailing the fine and revoked license. However, said they could not tell me any details although I had received this judgement on behalf of Zurich
As it is from the Strassenverkehrsamt (StVA) it is the administrative procedure. The CHF 350 are NOT a fine, but "just" a processing fee. The StVA does not issues fines. Also the StVA does not do any investigation. The investigation of the accident is done by the police and prosecutor at the place of the accident. The StVA will rule about license revocation or other administrative measure based on the police report, your testimony, and also based on the outcome of the criminal proceeding.

You might have got before that a letter from the StVA informing you that an administrative procedure was started and that you can contact them during a few hours per day.

Q: Did you get such a letter from the StVA and more importantly did you get in contact with the StVA to discuss the details of the incident? If yes, you might have admitted guilt. If not I would contest the StVA decission based on the simple fact that the criminal proceeding is still pending, technical investigations of the car are still ongoing, and you do not see yourself guilty.

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1. Do I have to worry about a criminal offense/record or jail?
Criminal offence? Yes. It is still pending,
Record or Jail? No, if you are found guilty in the pending criminal procedure, and the ruling is similar to the StVA ruling. StVA applied Art. 16b SVG (unless you had a prior warning), this means the criminal verdict is based on Art. 90 Abs 1 SVG which is a fine. If the fine is no more than CHF 5000 there will be no criminal record entry. CHF 5000 is very, very unlikely for traffic fine based on Art. 90 Abs. 1 SVG.
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Old 14.01.2020, 14:56
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Re: Car incident

"No report of them actually investigating my car with a mechanic which the brand has had quite a few problems with the exact things I mentioned (brakes, and lack of airbag immediate on impact) even a google search can quickly validate this."

Has the car marker issued a recall for this issue yet? If no, the car maker is liable. If yes, you're liable.
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Old 14.01.2020, 16:50
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Re: Car incident

"No report of them actually investigating my car with a mechanic which the brand has had quite a few problems with the exact things I mentioned (brakes, and lack of airbag immediate on impact) even a google search can quickly validate this."
Where is that car now??
Did you maintain it regularly?
As you already knew - general knowledge apparently, according to you - how come you even drove that - old, according to you - car still and/or did not keep a close eye on the brakes?

The thing is: You may have had an accident due to car failure but you might be made responsible for the car failure.

I loved my Toyota and it still ran like a sewing-machine - including braking - when the StVa forced me to give it up due to a totally rusty vehicle floor.
So what model was your's?

The handbrake would also have been the first thing to grab for me, specially when all the lights are flashing = nobody would rely on anything electronic anymore.

However, have that car checked by TCS and make sure you can prove you maintained it according to the regulations. A valid MOT is not enough.
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Old 14.01.2020, 20:24
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Re: Car incident

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Does your car not have a handbrake?
So to answer. Yes. But again, I was panicked admittedly so. I was slowing down my brakes and the accident itself all happened really fast.

There was not SO much time to respond so in retrospect it's relatively easy to say "well why didn't you try this" I noticed my lights... they went off around a curve... thought that's weird should take the car to the shop.... Next I was down hill, same thing plus brakes, then and accident.

Car lights for oil or even windshield do occasionally go on and off as they do with anyones car .... the first time it happened I thought it was my brake "skid" light as someone mentioned (car has light for hard braking). Driving, you're trying to avoid exactly something like this so you're paying more attention to the road.

My car was regularly maintained yes. Had a few recalls. I always took it to the shop and "fixed"the issue. Rav 4 btw.

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Old 14.01.2020, 20:37
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Re: Car incident

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So to answer. Yes. But again, I was panicked admittedly so. I was slowing down my brakes and the accident itself all happened really fast.

There was not SO much time to respond so in retrospect it's relatively easy to say "well why didn't you try this" I noticed my lights... they went off around a curve... thought that's weird should take the car to the shop.... Next I was down hill, same thing plus brakes, then and accident.

Car lights for oil or even windshield do occasionally go on and off as they do with anyones car .... the first time it happened I thought it was my brake "skid" light as someone mentioned (car has light for hard braking). Driving, you're trying not to avoid exactly something like this so you're paying more attention to the road.

My car was regularly maintained yes. Had a few recalls. I always took it to the shop and "fixed"the issue. Rav 4 btw.
Well make it a habit. Handbreak is the first thing you go for when braking hard is not enough (or not working) - plus of course the stearing wheel with the other hand as the handbreak tends get your car off track.

I avoided two accidents due to using the handbreak. One on ice and one on short notice (in England actually. The boys in the car were convinced I would not make it. To their disapontment - guys are weired - I stopped about 2mm behind the car in front).

That was both before ABS. But what good would ABS be in the situation you were in.
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Old 14.01.2020, 20:37
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Re: Car incident

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Bottom line is very simple - you had an accident due to not being in control of the car. As such I think you've got off fairly lightly with just a one-month ban. Of course you've still got probably something in four figures to pay as well.
Lightly? The most fair would be a warning I think... 16A would be a warning, fee, and fine. With this, for me, no problem. Not like I was out and about texting and driving or not maintaining the car... even if you argue the electric point thats a distraction or normal accident realm and not intent to be careless to motorway safety.

They are attempting to pursue 16b which is a "moderate"offense. I find this laughable. There's no evidence I purposefully made errors that would result in endangering the welfare of another.I certainly wasn't intoxicated. I've had a squeaky clean driving and criminal record.
I don't see how legally they could pursue this... the fact alone that it's taken several months to even decide what to name it is pretty shifty in itself.
The prosecutor's office was surprised Strassenverkehrsamt sent me anything due to their incomplete "investigation" (their words not mine).

Apparently now I have to sit around and wait for a time longer. Seems like a person can just wake up and decide the law how they see fit..
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Old 14.01.2020, 20:38
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Re: Car incident

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Rav 4 btw.
That explains it all.

(I would have posted this for any car)
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Old 14.01.2020, 20:44
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Re: Car incident

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Lightly? The most fair would be a warning I think... 16A would be a warning, fee, and fine. With this, for me, no problem. Not like I was out and about texting and driving or not maintaining the car... even if you argue the electric point thats a distraction or normal accident realm and not intent to be careless to motorway safety.

They are attempting to pursue 16b which is a "moderate"offense. I find this laughable. There's no evidence I purposefully made errors that would result in endangering the welfare of another.I certainly wasn't intoxicated. I've had a squeaky clean driving and criminal record.
I don't see how legally they could pursue this... the fact alone that it's taken several months to even decide what to name it is pretty shifty in itself.
The prosecutor's office was surprised Strassenverkehrsamt sent me anything due to their incomplete "investigation" (their words not mine).

Apparently now I have to sit around and wait for a time longer. Seems like a person can just wake up and decide the law how they see fit..
You did not answer the question where your car is now?

Can't you get the prosecutor to have a word with the Strassenverkehrsamt? For them to wait for the verdict?

Talking is everything and it really does work in Switzerland, you know. As long as you are polite and logical.

The normal verdict is "nicht Beherrschen des Fahrzeuges" and fits basically anything. If what you say about your brakes is true and can be prooven (see, where the hell is your car?!) it is a true accident. (Your insurance will still have to pay).
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Old 14.01.2020, 20:53
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Re: Car incident

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"No report of them actually investigating my car with a mechanic which the brand has had quite a few problems with the exact things I mentioned (brakes, and lack of airbag immediate on impact) even a google search can quickly validate this."

Has the car marker issued a recall for this issue yet? If no, the car maker is liable. If yes, you're liable.
A recall for the airbags came out AFTER my accident (also with a news report). Killed a couple people. My car was not listed as one. But being that the airbag did not deploy timely, or in my opinion safely (was a passenger once in a accident so I've seen how I believe they should work)... sounded eerily similar to the events happening in other models from Toyota made around the car's year. I think also it was the same producer of airbag in my car. The police officer and a friend a week after my accident directed me to this fact because I was complaining about it. The people who were still living complained of their electrical warnings coming on also.

SO many questions not enough answers. My cousin has the higher class version of the same car so I'm worried if she's driving a death trap.
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Old 14.01.2020, 20:57
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Re: Car incident

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Well make it a habit. Handbreak is the first thing you go for when braking hard is not enough (or not working) - plus of course the stearing wheel with the other hand as the handbreak tends get your car off track.

I avoided two accidents due to using the handbreak. One on ice and one on short notice (in England actually. The boys in the car were convinced I would not make it. To their disapontment - guys are weired - I stopped about 2mm behind the car in front).

That was both before ABS. But what good would ABS be in the situation you were in.
I don't think the handbrake is a good idea. They often work on the rear wheels, making the car uncontrollable when driving at a higher speed. Better shift in a lower gear.
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Old 14.01.2020, 20:58
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Re: Car incident

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They are attempting to pursue 16b which is a "moderate"offense. I find this laughable. There's no evidence I purposefully made errors that would result in endangering the welfare of another.
You've supplied all the evidence they need by trying to say that the car caused the problems - it's your responsibility to ensure the car is safe, so you're at fault if it's not. Like I said, it's very simple.

Also like I said I agree that it's unfair when compared with what may happen in other countries, but that's just tough titty.
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Old 14.01.2020, 21:36
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Re: Car incident

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I don't think the handbrake is a good idea. They often work on the rear wheels, making the car uncontrollable when driving at a higher speed. Better shift in a lower gear.
Which also works on the rear wheels in a RWD car!

Tom

P.S. I'd much rather lock the rear wheels than the front wheels.
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Old 14.01.2020, 21:37
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Re: Car incident

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I don't think the handbrake is a good idea. They often work on the rear wheels, making the car uncontrollable when driving at a higher speed. Better shift in a lower gear.
Yes I mentioned expecting the car to go off track and needing to .... countersteer is not the correct word. And it worked twice for me in very shitty situations.
If you're on really high speed you can't just slam a lower gear in - plus it means you need to push the clutch which will speed you up for a moment. This guy did not sound as if he had time for that. We're talking "stop now, goddammit".

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You've supplied all the evidence they need by trying to say that the car caused the problems - it's your responsibility to ensure the car is safe, so you're at fault if it's not. Like I said, it's very simple.

Also like I said I agree that it's unfair when compared with what may happen in other countries, but that's just tough titty.
Well, you said wrong. It is not 'very simple'. If the car was properly maintained and gave out it is technical failure.

You have a very strange view on Swiss judicature and of course you are entitled to have any opinion you like (TIS) but please don't spread it as facts.
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Old 14.01.2020, 21:42
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Re: Car incident

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Which also works on the rear wheels in a RWD car!

Tom

P.S. I'd much rather lock the rear wheels than the front wheels.

couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 14.01.2020, 21:56
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Re: Car incident

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You've supplied all the evidence they need by trying to say that the car caused the problems - it's your responsibility to ensure the car is safe, so you're at fault if it's not. Like I said, it's very simple.

Also like I said I agree that it's unfair when compared with what may happen in other countries, but that's just tough titty.
Surely, you can't expect a car in a shop every single week can you? i'm sure the people whose airbags exploded and bits of metal went into their skull are not at fault....so one would have to assume it's not simple... because what would be the "prevention" method until the company releases a recall? Prayer? Luck?

As I said, it's not for lack of maintenance... this car was well looked after it looked very nice for it's age and didn't have a huge amount of km..one of those lucky unlucky things
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