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Old 18.02.2020, 10:54
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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kW, NOT kWh!

kWh is the charge, not the charge rate.

Anyway, 11kW is 50A. 50A x 50chargers = 2500A!

(2500/3 = 833A if 3P charging)

You will need your own substation for that!

Tom
Which would make 300K total costs very cheap.

However it is very unlikely that all 50 stations can deliver 100% at the same time. I would not be surprised if the simultaneity factor would be capped at for example 25%

However it has to be asked how it all will be implemented, if there will be a new connection to the network for this will only car owners pay the steady monthly costs, or do all split, meaning there are also monthly costs involved using it or not.

As for knowing the usage per user, that is the easy part. Either everybody gets the connection behind their own meter or the stations can send the values to a central computer. What also might be nice to know is if one can lock the stations to prevent the neighbour charging while being on holiday.
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Old 18.02.2020, 11:20
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

The Wiki says a ladestation is one of these https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladestation

It seems the thing quoted for 3800 CHF is a "fast charging station per parking place" and not a simple 220V plug.

So, what is it being quoted in first place? A simple plug like the one for a freezer in the keller or a fast charging station?
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Old 18.02.2020, 11:33
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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The Wiki says a ladestation is one of these https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladestation

It seems the thing quoted for 3800 CHF is a "fast charging station per parking place" and not a simple 220V plug.

So, what is it being quoted in first place? A simple plug like the one for a freezer in the keller or a fast charging station?
It was never going to be a simple 220v plug, 3 phase 16amp is likely
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Old 18.02.2020, 11:45
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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The Wiki says a ladestation is one of these https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladestation

It seems the thing quoted for 3800 CHF is a "fast charging station per parking place" and not a simple 220V plug.

So, what is it being quoted in first place? A simple plug like the one for a freezer in the keller or a fast charging station?
Beyond doubt it will not be fast charging stations but regular charging stations, fast ones start around 50kW which would be total overkill for at home. (That be 72A/3P).
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Old 18.02.2020, 11:46
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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It was never going to be a simple 220v plug, 3 phase 16amp is likely
Yep, 11kW is sort of the default for decent home charging. Anything lower also might simply be to small for a heavy daily commuter.
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Old 18.02.2020, 12:15
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

I calculate the cost of charging at CHF0.14 per kWh using only off-peak. (Teslas have a timer for charging.) All the other fixed overheads from the ZKB are already paid, the EV charging is just extra.

Theoretically charging a 75kWh battery from zero to full - neither of which is possible - would cost CHF10.50 for a VERY theoretical range of 530kms. The reality is that I usually top up every night.

I feel converting 50 bays to have charging is overly ambitious and perhaps at first have only a few for those who have or will have an EV in the near future. Individual metering should be possible to avoid punch ups with those still on internal combustion engines.
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Old 18.02.2020, 12:17
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

For those interested in the topic of charging:

The 8-bit guy, "Electric Car Charging, How long does it REALLY take?" (Jan 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcoLCTkM0ys
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Old 18.02.2020, 12:20
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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So, what is it being quoted in first place? A simple plug like the one for a freezer in the keller or a fast charging station?
That is indeed the question. The proposal seems light on details. But thankfully all y'all have given me very good questions to ask, things I naively would never have thought to ask on my own.
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Old 18.02.2020, 14:18
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

11kW needs a 16A 3 Phase Connection.

11000W/400V/1.73pf= 15.89A

A contributing factor to the cost of the installation or wallbox (depending if this is integrated) is the need to install a special RCD type EV which are fairly expensive.
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Old 18.02.2020, 14:39
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

A 11KW ladestation (charging unit) is between ~700 and 1700 CHF, not including other hardware and of course LABOR costs. https://www.toppreise.ch/produktsuch...estation+&cid=

3800 CHF starts to look reasonable
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Old 18.02.2020, 14:48
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

We just got our shell/newmotion charging station installed in our own individual garage in Neuchatel for Tesla Model S. Everything including installation, 3 year subscription, Dynamic Power Management unit, 3phase power and etc.. came out to like CHF2800. The charging station was CHF1500. The garage is directly below our stand-alone apartment so the no need to run the wires long. Luckily for us, my wife's work paid for the charging station and our landlord paid for the installation. But he gets to keep the charging station once we move back to the US at the end of the year..
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Old 18.02.2020, 15:37
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

MC, haven't read the whole thread, but I will tell you what it costed me in Wollerau, so your next village, in a Tiefgarage with like 80 places.


I went with EW Höfe. Including the full wiring pulled, encased, fire protection in drilled holes, new flip switch in common board and a Mennekes charging box installed and tested for safety by an independent company, it costed me 2200.- (included in this is charge box cost, which is approx 700.- IIRC). They did a very good job.



I had another quote from local electriker which was about 3500.-


Keep in mind this was individual for me, it did not include upgrading the building incoming cables to much higher capacity and then load balancing which would be needed if every spot is being electrified.


HTH
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Old 18.02.2020, 16:11
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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Keep in mind this was individual for me, it did not include upgrading the building incoming cables to much higher capacity and then load balancing which would be needed if every spot is being electrified.


HTH
As it's using all 3 phases the load is balanced......
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Old 18.02.2020, 16:37
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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Good questions re: ongoing charging costs/ individual metering of electric use

Currently the electricity cost for the garage is split among the owners, each pays based on the number of parking spots one owns. Only a few will likely rush out and buy an electric car once charging stations are installed, making for unequal usage in the short to medium term.

So I foresee yet another kerfuffle at the Quartier meeting, any proposal that hints that someone might end up paying for something not benefitting them while benefitting another usually devolves into the mother of all bunfights...

Those who have electric cars - can you give me an idea of what your additional electric costs due to charging have been?

Also interesting question about tax deductions. Are there incentives? And if so I wonder who could/should apply for them, each individual owner, or the garage Genossenschaft? The latter is still the owners, but an interesting financial question.



Lawdy, I am not looking forward to this Quartier meeting...

Why would you install 50 charging stations? Shouldn’t the ones who have electric cars pay for there own installation ? The people in your housing association need hobbies.
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Old 18.02.2020, 16:40
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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As it's using all 3 phases the load is balanced......
Making sure the car does charge at lower capacity when the rest of the house has high demand is also load balancing, might save a lot of money instead of upgrading the connection to the grid.
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Old 18.02.2020, 16:44
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

CHF 6k (CHF330K in total) seems very high. i seem to recall when we looked into this a few years ago for our apartments it was in the region of CHF120,000 for 80 parking spaces.

We are also looking into this now for two floors of parking, 65 spaces, for a new building, but will likely only have half of them for electric cars, but allowing it to be expanded later. When I have an idea of the price, if this thread is still current I'll post it here. The company doing the research for us is AF Toscano, so maybe give them a call, they might be able to help, though every time we ask them something we get an invoice!!
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Old 18.02.2020, 16:45
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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As it's using all 3 phases the load is balanced......
You are right. Let me rephrase.

Power Management setup is needed for 80 plug points with the aim to adjust power to individual sockets based on how many are operational etc.
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Old 18.02.2020, 22:29
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

Do you have a copy of one of the offers, so we can see what is actually included in the price?

With 50 charging points, you need some sort of management solution in place.

I would assume that is driving up the cost. It does increase the value of the apartment, though.
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Old 19.02.2020, 10:04
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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Why would you install 50 charging stations? Shouldn’t the ones who have electric cars pay for there own installation ? The people in your housing association need hobbies.


But being serious, the garage is covered by a Gestaltungsplan, as are our houses. Any changes I make to the exterior of my home, or to my parking spaces, need the approval of the other owners. We are quite restricted to what we can do on our own.* Hence the only way to get many things done is to do them as a group.


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Do you have a copy of one of the offers, so we can see what is actually included in the price?

With 50 charging points, you need some sort of management solution in place.

I would assume that is driving up the cost.

All I have at this stage is a broad concept outline, and costs that 'muss abgeklärt werden'. I assume more details will be forthcoming prior to the meeting.

---

This has been an interesting exercise. Electric cars make sense if one has a truly stand alone property with truly stand alone infrastructure making installation easy.

But what this exercise seems to suggest is that the push for electric cars everywhere could run into some serious barriers, as the majority of people in Switzerland, even owners of individual homes, have some kind of infrastructure-sharing aspect to their properties. Neighborhoods like mine were built (in the 80s) on the idea of maximizing individual home space by sharing some non-living space infrastructure.

Not to mention the whole grid capacity question. Interesting times ahead.

---

All I can say is: I own my own home because I could not stand to live sharing laundry facilities. If electric cars mean that we'd be forced into a laundry-like rota for charging our cars..




* I was naive when buying this house. I saw a nice house with land, coming from a very different, individualistic my-home-is-my-castle experience of home ownership I really did not understand the full impact of what the Gestaltungsplan/owner association could mean.

I had of course asked the sellers and estate agent and Gemeinde about the Gestaltungsplan and HOA. All blithely said 'Oh, the association just makes sure the garage is cleaned, aside from that you can do what you want...' Live and learn. Hence why many of my posts wrt buying in Switzerland emphasize not trusting a word anyone says - do your own research.
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Old 19.02.2020, 10:10
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Re: Cost of installing charging units for electric cars?

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But being serious, the garage is covered by a Gestaltungsplan, as are our houses. Any changes I make to the exterior of my home, or to my parking spaces, need the approval of the other owners. We are quite restricted to what we can do on our own.* Hence the only way to get many things done is to do them as a group.





All I have at this stage is a broad concept outline, and costs that 'muss abgeklärt werden'. I assume more details will be forthcoming prior to the meeting.

---

This has been an interesting exercise. Electric cars make sense if one has a truly stand alone property with truly stand alone infrastructure making installation easy.

But what this exercise seems to suggest is that the push for electric cars everywhere could run into some serious barriers, as the majority of people in Switzerland, even owners of individual homes, have some kind of infrastructure-sharing aspect to their properties. Neighborhoods like mine were built (in the 80s) on the idea of maximizing individual home space by sharing some non-living space infrastructure.

Not to mention the whole grid capacity question. Interesting times ahead.

---

All I can say is: I own my own home because I could not stand to live sharing laundry facilities. If electric cars mean that we'd be forced into a laundry-like rota for charging our cars..




* I was naive when buying this house. I saw a nice house with land, coming from a very different, individualistic my-home-is-my-castle experience of home ownership I really did not understand the full impact of what the Gestaltungsplan/owner association could mean.

I had of course asked the sellers and estate agent and Gemeinde about the Gestaltungsplan and HOA. All blithely said 'Oh, the association just makes sure the garage is cleaned, aside from that you can do what you want...' Live and learn. Hence why many of my posts wrt buying in Switzerland emphasize not trusting a word anyone says - do your own research.
It would make sense to put in the electrical connection but to let each owner pay for the charger if they actually have an electric car, the chargers will get cheaper over time as they become more standard.
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