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  #61  
Old 22.06.2020, 18:48
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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As you know, I own an EV (Tesla Model X Long Range) and I'm surprised and disappointed by its range. It's nowhere near its claimed range. Not just a bit off, but up to 40% less. If a driver is going to drop well in excess of CHF 100k on a car, s/he's going to want a car that performs well, looks good, maybe makes something of a statement, and is comfortable. Sacrificing large amounts of range because I want 21" wheels is not on. Not being able to drive anywhere near as far in winter as in summer is not on (distances between cities don't shrink with cold weather!). And having a screen full of arcade games and farts on demand doesn't make up for interior cabin noise that's louder than in my V8 diesel car. (OK, so that last one has nothing to do with range.)

As to who drives 400 km without a break, I've said this before but I'll say it again. Our car travels every week from Basel to Vaud, 180 km each way. It is parked the whole day in a giant parking lot in Vaud (losing 2-3% in phantom drain), then driven back home. There are no charging facilities at all (not even a 10A power outlet) in the car park. Despite a claimed range of 510 km, we have never come even close to making the 360 km return trip on a single charge, and that means taking a detour off the highway (as there is no conveniently located Supercharger yet) for a 25-30 minute recharge, adding about 12% to the total commuting time for the day. Range anxiety is a thing, believe me. And the low efficiency means that we have to charge to 100% before starting the trip, which is not great for the battery in the long run.

Obviously that situation is peculiar to us, but I'm certain we're not alone and others often have to drive 350+ km in a day without convenient charging options. Offsetting that is the relaxation factor produced by driving a car with autopilot and a great sound system (diminished somewhat by that fearsome cabin noise).

EVs are well on their way, but they're not there yet. Maybe Tesla's million mile, 1,000 km per charge batteries (if they really do eventuate) will change all that, although based on our experience, the true range will be in the order of 600 km -- which is perfectly acceptable.
It would be interesting to see how your trip would fair with a different EV. Can you please try it with a Nissan Leaf and a Renault Zoe? You can tell them, that you're not happy with your Tesla and you'd like to try an alternative for the weekend. Thanks in advance!
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  #62  
Old 22.06.2020, 19:04
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

Well, I have had days of 850km, and am happy that my 12kchf car can do this easy with no stress. You're not getting me in an EV.
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  #63  
Old 22.06.2020, 19:06
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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Well, I have had days of 850km, and am happy that my 12kchf car can do this easy with no stress. You're not getting me in an EV.
What car do you drive?
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Old 22.06.2020, 19:20
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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If you lived your life by that principle,

Well, in my defence, I do ride that 10K bi-(quad-...)cycle !

So no, its is not all beans here......and that bike is still smarter than buying a 300K Ferrari-Porsche-Lambo- whatever.
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  #65  
Old 22.06.2020, 19:23
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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What car do you drive?
Citroen C3, I have the 'prices start at 10999' version with no extras and the standard paint... the dealer had never sold one of those before and had to special order it :-)

Comes as standard with cruise control, which is the only extra I would have paid for.

I thought about second hand, but I also wanted the fuel economy of a modern car (I get on average 4.4 L per 100km).
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  #66  
Old 22.06.2020, 19:29
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Just like that, now get everybody to drive one.
No thank you.

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Citroen C3, I have the 'prices start at 10999' version with no extras and the standard paint... the dealer had never sold one of those before and had to special order it :-)

Comes as standard with cruise control, which is the only extra I would have paid for.

I thought about second hand, but I also wanted the fuel economy of a modern car (I get on average 4.4 L per 100km).
That's pretty good. I use 4.4 L just to start the engine.
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  #67  
Old 22.06.2020, 21:33
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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As you know, I own an EV (Tesla Model X Long Range) and I'm surprised and disappointed by its range. It's nowhere near its claimed range. Not just a bit off, but up to 40% less. If a driver is going to drop well in excess of CHF 100k on a car, s/he's going to want a car that performs well, looks good, maybe makes something of a statement, and is comfortable. Sacrificing large amounts of range because I want 21" wheels is not on. Not being able to drive anywhere near as far in winter as in summer is not on (distances between cities don't shrink with cold weather!). And having a screen full of arcade games and farts on demand doesn't make up for interior cabin noise that's louder than in my V8 diesel car. (OK, so that last one has nothing to do with range.)

As to who drives 400 km without a break, I've said this before but I'll say it again. Our car travels every week from Basel to Vaud, 180 km each way. It is parked the whole day in a giant parking lot in Vaud (losing 2-3% in phantom drain), then driven back home. There are no charging facilities at all (not even a 10A power outlet) in the car park. Despite a claimed range of 510 km, we have never come even close to making the 360 km return trip on a single charge, and that means taking a detour off the highway (as there is no conveniently located Supercharger yet) for a 25-30 minute recharge, adding about 12% to the total commuting time for the day. Range anxiety is a thing, believe me. And the low efficiency means that we have to charge to 100% before starting the trip, which is not great for the battery in the long run.

Obviously that situation is peculiar to us, but I'm certain we're not alone and others often have to drive 350+ km in a day without convenient charging options. Offsetting that is the relaxation factor produced by driving a car with autopilot and a great sound system (diminished somewhat by that fearsome cabin noise).

EVs are well on their way, but they're not there yet. Maybe Tesla's million mile, 1,000 km per charge batteries (if they really do eventuate) will change all that, although based on our experience, the true range will be in the order of 600 km -- which is perfectly acceptable.

How much energy do you use?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=735351678

With 20 inch wheels and driving 90 km/h, Bjørn managed 520km.
With 120 km/h, he still managed 400, about 23Wh/km.

From Zurich to Geneva, how many kms can you actually go 120?

And yet, the Model X is the most efficient available EV SUV of this size, by far.
That's with a design that is essentially a five or six year old.

Side-question:
Do the FW doors at least work these days?
Apart from spending 100 grand on such a car, the FW doors (and its many reported teething-problems) would be my biggest concern.

You could probably reduce cabin noise by installing additional insulation - but I get that one might be reluctant to do that on a six-figure car.
;-)
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Old 22.06.2020, 22:27
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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How much energy do you use?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=735351678

With 20 inch wheels and driving 90 km/h, Bjørn managed 520km.
With 120 km/h, he still managed 400, about 23Wh/km.

From Zurich to Geneva, how many kms can you actually go 120?

And yet, the Model X is the most efficient available EV SUV of this size, by far.
That's with a design that is essentially a five or six year old.

Side-question:
Do the FW doors at least work these days?
Apart from spending 100 grand on such a car, the FW doors (and its many reported teething-problems) would be my biggest concern.

You could probably reduce cabin noise by installing additional insulation - but I get that one might be reluctant to do that on a six-figure car.
;-)
The best efficiency we (well, my wife) has ever achieved with our Model X was 220 Wh/km at one point (that's an average over 50 km), and it was a one-off. My figure can be more like 350, due to my, erm, "spirited" driving style. I'd be quite impressed if Bjørn achieved 23 Wh/km. (His actual figure for our car is 229, but that's in summer at 120 km/h on 19" wheels, and we just don't want tiny wheels on our car.)

I don't actually believe everything that our friend Bjørn claims. He lives in -200° most of the year and claims battery efficiency way higher than what we can get in moderate climes. His range claims are based on extrapolations; he reports the energy usage (based on the car's readout?) and multiplies that by the (sometimes guessed) capacity of the battery to yield a theoretical range. I don't recall seeing a lot of YouTubers matching his range figures. There's something odd going on there. Also, I'm just not going to limit myself to 90 km/h to get better efficiency (yes, it's the Tesla sweet spot, but as I said before, I want to enjoy the car; also, I don't want to have to compromise!).

I use TezLab, which tells me that the real world range of our car is 312 km at 90% (i.e. 347 km at 100%), and that's with careful driving. Still not enough to make that Basel-Vaud-Basel round commute.

No idea about Zürich to Geneva, but from Basel to Vaud it's 120 km/h most of the way (pesky tunnels and occasional random speed limit reductions excepted), but of course there's always the famous summer roadworks... And we also do a regular weekend trip of 170 km each way (with charging available at our destination), when we regularly hit 180 km/h or more and average about 90 km/h.

The falcon wing doors are a huge positive, at least for us. They really do everything that's written on the tin and we haven't had any problems with them to date (touch the genuine wood dash). They make getting in and out of the car a breeze and are great when loading bulky stuff in the boot with the seats folded down. Our car is only seven months old so I think Tesla's teething problems are behind us. There were still some little niggly things (paint imperfections, trim coming loose) but Tesla sorted all of those out easily.

My car is more like CHF 120k with FSD (full self driving), those wheels, and all the other options (there aren't many, to be fair), and no, I don't want to go taping insulation to the doors. For 120k, I really expect better quality. I think the acres of glass are one problem for noise reduction, and Tesla cost-cutting is another. Foolishly, I fell for the "there's no engine noise, so of course you'll hear more" story, but take a look at any YouTube video with the driver speaking inside the cabin at speeds over 60 km/h. You can barely make out what they're saying (and by the way, handsfree phone conversations on the in-car Bluetooth system are almost impossible).

But yes, the Model X Raven is the most efficient EV of its size and it's light years ahead of any other make in technology and driver comforts (except for quality of interior and exterior finish), so I will continue my love-hate relationship with it.
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  #69  
Old 22.06.2020, 22:32
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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It would be interesting to see how your trip would fair with a different EV. Can you please try it with a Nissan Leaf and a Renault Zoe? You can tell them, that you're not happy with your Tesla and you'd like to try an alternative for the weekend. Thanks in advance!
I'll let you know once I've recovered from 12 weeks' physiotherapy for the ensuing back problems...

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That's pretty good. I use 4.4 L just to start the engine.
The cigarette lighter alone in mine consumes 4.4L.
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Old 22.06.2020, 22:46
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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Well, in my defence, I do ride that 10K bi-(quad-...)cycle !

So no, its is not all beans here......and that bike is still smarter than buying a 300K Ferrari-Porsche-Lambo- whatever.
Let's meet at the top of the Stelvio Pass and chat about that over a beer. (I guess a late-night drink might suit you better?)

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  #71  
Old 23.06.2020, 00:56
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

IIRC, Bjørn live-streams many of his tests.
The Youtube videos are condensed to 20-40 minutes.

My guess is that we'll get new batteries with the Cybertruck, which will make their way down to S, X and eventually 3 and Y.

Cybertruck's range-projections are only possible with major improvements in battery energy density, AFAIK.

Maybe you'll be happier with a Cybertruck anyway. You just have to park it outside cities here and then use the ATV for the "last miles".
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Old 23.06.2020, 02:04
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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IIRC, Bjørn live-streams many of his tests.
The Youtube videos are condensed to 20-40 minutes.

My guess is that we'll get new batteries with the Cybertruck, which will make their way down to S, X and eventually 3 and Y.

Cybertruck's range-projections are only possible with major improvements in battery energy density, AFAIK.

Maybe you'll be happier with a Cybertruck anyway. You just have to park it outside cities here and then use the ATV for the "last miles".
Exactly, that thing wouldn't even fit down my driveway, let alone in my garage. And the design is totally polarising, with my wife and me at opposite poles. But anyway, obviously I need a truck with steel ball-proof windows...

Supposedly Tesla's Chinese battery partner has developed a high-density, cobalt-free battery that would give the Cybertruck and the Roadster their promised range. Speaking of which, we drove the V8 diesel SUV that I mentioned a few posts ago on the regular weekend jaunt (as well as the X). The diesel has a range of nearly 1,000 km from a full tank and the fuel gauge barely budged on the 170 km drive home. EVs need to get to that level of autonomy to achieve wholehearted adoption by the public.

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  #73  
Old 23.06.2020, 10:05
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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The diesel has a range of nearly 1,000 km from a full tank and the fuel gauge barely budged on the 170 km drive home. EVs need to get to that level of autonomy to achieve wholehearted adoption by the public.
Wholehearted adoption by the public? Is there a number to express that?

The Tesla 3 is top 5 seller in CH (1,235 Jan-May 2020). The backbreaking Renault Zoe is not far behind (875 Jan-May 2020). Just for context, the best selling car in CH is the Skoda Octavia with 2,345 cars sold during Jan-May 2020. https://www.auto.swiss/statistiken/p...-nach-modellen

I definitively not drive an EV before 2022 because I like my current car and I'm almost sure I'll not get EV after the end of my current lease because I want a 2 door 2 seat light car. Anyway, people is buying them in spite of not having 1000km autonomy. If EVs were brand, they're as large as Audi in CH by market share right now: 5.5% and growing https://www.auto.swiss/fileadmin/3_S...PW_2020_5.xlsx
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Old 23.06.2020, 10:10
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

I just wonder whether EVs are going to be adopted by everybody or whether it is just by a few who want and EV and that sales will die down after everyone who wants an EV has one.
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Old 23.06.2020, 10:46
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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I just wonder whether EVs are going to be adopted by everybody or whether it is just by a few who want and EV and that sales will die down after everyone who wants an EV has one.

Current EV sales are influenced by 2 things that will disappear in the long term: (i) incentives/tax rebates, and (ii) sales below production costs from manufacturers. These two things are increasing demand today, I have no idea what is the demand left after they're gone but surely above 0.
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Old 23.06.2020, 10:57
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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I just wonder whether EVs are going to be adopted by everybody or whether it is just by a few who want and EV and that sales will die down after everyone who wants an EV has one.
I have yet to come across anyone who has driven an EV who does not want to buy one.

As more people discover the ease and liveliness of driving and thrill of instant torque (depending on what model) the more will make the obvious choice.

I have had over 30 cars in over 50 years of driving experience. My last car was an F-type Jaguar. My other half drives a GTI Performance. There is no way I would or could contemplate ever getting another ICE car...
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Old 23.06.2020, 11:15
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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Current EV sales are influenced by 2 things that will disappear in the long term: (i) incentives/tax rebates, and (ii) sales below production costs from manufacturers. These two things are increasing demand today, I have no idea what is the demand left after they're gone but surely above 0.
No incentives or tax rebates for EVs in Switzerland, unfortunately. And I'm not sure that manufacturers are all selling below cost. Tesla seems to be threatening to make profits soon, and with ramped-up production come economies of scale.

Just to be clear, there are many things about my Tesla that really impress me, and a few that I love. It's just that the negative aspects are really annoying and tend to cloud the positive. But I am sure that one manufacturer or another (or all of them) will work these bugs out over the next few years.

I still don't get what's wrong with the hydrogen fuel cell (or "fool cell", as Elon affectionately calls it) concept, though. That seems a winner all round, unless the energy required to produce hydrogen is a deal-breaker.

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Old 23.06.2020, 13:13
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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No incentives or tax rebates for EVs in Switzerland, unfortunately.
Transparent incentive are the discounts or exemptions for the vehicle tax for EVs offered by some cantons.

But that pales compared to the not so evident Petroleum tax of 73.12 cents per liter. About half the fuel price to the customer. On 2018, 2.7 billion CHF went to CH federal budget, road and aviation development. https://www.ezv.admin.ch/ezv/en/home...oleum-tax.html

EV users don't pay this tax for now. If the EV fraction of total vehicle fleet keeps growing, the CH federal budget will have a hole or they come up with an special tax for EVs.

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And I'm not sure that manufacturers are all selling below cost. Tesls seems to be threatening to make profits soon, and with ramped-up production come economies of scale.
If Tesla doesn't generate consistent profits it means car are sold below cost. Investors may sustain this situation for the sake of growth but eventually cars need to be sold for profit. It would be interesting to estimate the retail price of a Tesla X if the company had to generate profits at that time.
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Old 23.06.2020, 13:15
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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Transparent incentive are the discounts or exemptions for the vehicle tax for EVs offered by some cantons.

But that pales compared to the not so evident Petroleum tax of 73.12 cents per liter. About half the fuel price to the customer. On 2018, 2.7 billion CHF went to CH federal budget, road and aviation development. https://www.ezv.admin.ch/ezv/en/home...oleum-tax.html

EV users don't pay this tax for now. If the EV fraction of total vehicle fleet keeps growing, the CH federal budget will have a hole or they come up with an special tax for EVs.



If Tesla doesn't generate consistent profits it means car are sold below cost. Investors may sustain this situation for the sake of growth but eventually cars need to be sold for profit. It would be interesting to estimate the retail price of a Tesla X if the company had to generate profits at that time.
Tesla also receives billions from selling emisison credits to ICE car manufacturers another transfer from ICE to EV at the manufacturer level.
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Old 23.06.2020, 18:49
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Re: Tesla Roadster 2020

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Tesla also receives billions from selling emisison credits to ICE car manufacturers another transfer from ICE to EV at the manufacturer level.
Well! Ain't that nICE!
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