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Old 05.08.2020, 01:06
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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Very good if it's true. If it isn't - don't do it. Perverting the course of justice is a very very serious offence - worse than speeding.
The accused is not obliged to help in the investigation. And telling them that the driver, kind of looks like your brother AFTER they excluded you as the driver is not that wrong.

BTW: A monetary penalty is usually on probation. So no need to pay except for a huge fine in the range of a thousand francs. Plus some other fees which come on top of that.
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Old 05.08.2020, 16:12
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

Thanks for the various replies.

The car was rented and he doesn't deny his foolishness, but then haven't we all been foolish whilst young!

What I'd like to know must they, or does he have the right, to be informed of the speed he was caught at and a copy of the photo in advance of the hearing?

They have simply summonsed him for a "grave speeding offence". No other information at all.

Will the police make the fine and penalty, or is this summons just to "extract", err, gather evidence, a confession before it's handed to a judge?
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Old 05.08.2020, 17:18
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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Thanks for the various replies.

The car was rented and he doesn't deny his foolishness, but then haven't we all been foolish whilst young!

What I'd like to know must they, or does he have the right, to be informed of the speed he was caught at and a copy of the photo in advance of the hearing?

They have simply summonsed him for a "grave speeding offence". No other information at all.

Will the police make the fine and penalty, or is this summons just to "extract", err, gather evidence, a confession before it's handed to a judge?
Things are getting confusing. The title of the post is Speeding 105 in 60 zone, I thought this info was provided by the police.

Anyway, the photo of the driver may be important or not at all. In one case, one court in Vaud determined that if the driver cannot be identified, the car owner pays. In other case, the blurry photo mattered and the car owner got a much lower fine. But, a blurry photo only matters if the possibility of someone else driving can be presented to the court.

https://lenews.ch/2015/10/05/court-c...o-was-driving/

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/mais-q...e-142602218489

In this case the car owner is a rental company. I'd read first what the rental contract says. My guess is that every time you rent a car you need to declare the driver(s). It's quite improbable someone beyond the declared driver(s) in the contract could be driving the car. If the contract has only 1 declared driver, telling someone else was driving means breach of contract with some penalties/fees for that. Or, the contract may say the declared driver accepts liability for all the cost/damages of undeclared/unidentified drivers and end of story. So, what the contract says?

My guess is that this is a real difficult situation because there's 2 organizations after the guy: the police and the car rental company. The rental company is the last one that will take a loss and is surely already shared with the police all they have. It would be good to know what they already told the police because any story deviating from that will just make harder to defend the driver. Good luck.
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Old 05.08.2020, 17:53
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

No, it's not a case of him denying the offense or trying to wriggle out of it. He was speeding and he's prepared, though nervous, to accept the consequences. All the rental company did was provide the police with his name, address and d.o.b. when they requested it. In fact he's still renting from the same company

All he wants to know is what speed did they clock him at. Does he have the right to know what speed he was doing according to the photo in advance of the hearing? That is the question as the police have not provided him with this information.

Last edited by LuganoPirate; 05.08.2020 at 18:13.
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Old 05.08.2020, 18:00
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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What I'd like to know must they, or does he have the right, to be informed of the speed he was caught at and a copy of the photo in advance of the hearing?

They have simply summonsed him for a "grave speeding offence". No other information at all.

Will the police make the fine and penalty, or is this summons just to "extract", err, gather evidence, a confession before it's handed to a judge?
He has no right at this moment to see the evidences against him. (Art. 101 Criminal Proceeding Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a101)

He has the right to know what he is accused of. Best to remain silent as the the only probable excuse for speeding is that life was in danger. He will have to state identity, place of residence, and profession.
See Art. 157 to 161 Criminal Proceeding Code
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a157

The police will hand over the case with all evidences and statements to the prosecutor. The prosecutor can now either, close the case (because of lack of evidence or because the accused is deemed inocent), hand out a penalty order w/o the need of a judge (See Art. 352 Criminal Proceeding Code), or bring maters to the district court.
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Old 05.08.2020, 18:12
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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Anyway, the photo of the driver may be important or not at all. In one case, one court in Vaud determined that if the driver cannot be identified, the car owner pays. In other case, the blurry photo mattered and the car owner got a much lower fine. But, a blurry photo only matters if the possibility of someone else driving can be presented to the court.
This is only relevant for simple fines according the price list. Only there a fall back option exist where the registered holder might have to pay the fine. 105 in a 60 is beyond any simple fine.
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Old 05.08.2020, 21:31
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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This is only relevant for simple fines according the price list. Only there a fall back option exist where the registered holder might have to pay the fine. 105 in a 60 is beyond any simple fine.

Thanks for the correction. 45 km/h above the limit it is indeed beyond a fine where you get an orange payment slip.

Last edited by Axa; 05.08.2020 at 21:49.
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Old 06.08.2020, 01:02
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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He has no right at this moment to see the evidences against him. (Art. 101 Criminal Proceeding Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a101)

He has the right to know what he is accused of.
Just to clarify: these two statements are a little at odds with each other, as least with regard to the OP's tenant's main concern, which (if I understand correctly) is to know what speed he was clocked at. Sure, the police have no duty to hand over evidence at this point, but they do need to say what the tenant is accused of, which must include the alleged speed he was doing. They can't just allege that he was speeding -- they need to specify the alleged crime, which is that he was speeding by x km/h in a 60 km/h zone. The tenant should ask the simple question before his interview: "What is your allegation against me?"

The police may well pull out the photo from the speed camera at the interview. There is still no need for the tenant to acknowledge that it's his neatly snapped portrait.
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Old 06.08.2020, 08:39
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

As an ex-HWP officer I can recommend the following:

*Finalise the appointment for the interview, take a translator/native speaker with you.
*Find out how the speed was detected, ask politely if you can see the evidence.
*This isn't a murder case, its speeding. You can answer honestly ("I missed the speed limit sign, thought it was 100. And I was driving to the conditions ie light traffic, good weather".
*Don't sign anything you don't understand or been independently translated for you.
*Be ready to attend the court hearing if you wish to plead your case.

Actions have consequences, unfortunately in Switzerland for speeding they are disproportionately severe.
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Old 06.08.2020, 09:14
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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As an ex-HWP officer I can recommend the following:

*Finalise the appointment for the interview, take a translator/native speaker with you.
*Find out how the speed was detected, ask politely if you can see the evidence.
*This isn't a murder case, its speeding. You can answer honestly ("I missed the speeding sign, thought it was 100. And I was driving to the conditions ie light traffic, good weather".
*Don't sign anything you don't understand or been independently translated for you.
*Be ready to attend the court hearing if you wish to plead your case.

Actions have consequences, unfortunately in Switzerland for speeding they are disproportionately severe.
Excellent advice as usual.
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Old 07.08.2020, 19:49
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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Things are getting confusing. The title of the post is Speeding 105 in 60 zone, I thought this info was provided by the police.

Anyway, the photo of the driver may be important or not at all. In one case, one court in Vaud determined that if the driver cannot be identified, the car owner pays. In other case, the blurry photo mattered and the car owner got a much lower fine. But, a blurry photo only matters if the possibility of someone else driving can be presented to the court.

https://lenews.ch/2015/10/05/court-c...o-was-driving/

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/mais-q...e-142602218489
The first case took place July 2013, before the introduction of holder liability in 2014. It's only the article by 24heures that is from 2015.

The fine for the 2nd one was 450.-, which is above the range where the holder is the default culprit.
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Old 07.08.2020, 21:09
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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The fine for the 2nd one was 450.-, which is above the range where the holder
is the default culprit.
The fine is might be that high because it went to court. A judge is no longer bound to the price list (OBV and OBG) and can freely set a higher fine based on circumstances and previous infractions (Ordentliches Verfahren vs. Ordnungsbussenverfahren). Knowing how the press reports things the CHF 450 might included court cost and other fees.

But you might be right. It was 77 in a 60 zone. If this was inside the urban area it was no longer a case according the price list.

In the first case Art. 6 OBG did not play any part at all. It was only about the pictures itself as in the front picture the Mercedes in offence is hidden by the Skoda. The data attached to the picture says that the car in lane 2 is speeding. Police expert said, that the actual measurement was done before the photograph.
https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/la-pho...e-204820458199

But luckily Monsieur Poitry gives us another case, where he managed to wiggle out despite Art. 6 OBG.
https://www.24heures.ch/news/standar...story/16262433
https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/innoce...e-800936004409
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  #33  
Old 08.08.2020, 13:20
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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Until he has seen the photo that clearly shows he is the driver he should say nothing, it's up to the police to prove the case. The interview is to gather evidence to HELP THE POLICE do their job, a confession helps them .
If the photo is not clear & he says nothing they have a problem with their case!

I do know somebody in Zurich where this happened, the Police immediately said it's not you in the picture (it was the person) he nominated his brother who lived abroad & ended up with a tiny fine as the brothers earnings were a fraction of his.
God forbid someone take responsibility for being an asshole....
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Old 08.08.2020, 14:21
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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God forbid someone take responsibility for being an asshole....
morals and social behaviour =/= law
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Old 08.08.2020, 14:25
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

From this thread i see this logic:

A road decreases from 80 to 60 and if you are 100 (many roads in Switzerland are 80 they would be 130 in other country around) you are evil.

So much better to drink 1L of wine and drive at 40.

Now i understand a lot of drivers i see in road from Basel to Como. Thanks a lot forum to understand the driving logic.

Drive slow and drunk. Because you will never be caught...no speeding

PS: This post is a vent of driving a lot Zurich to Konstanz and see a lot of 80 and 100 limit and this can be only to terrible driving formation.
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Old 08.08.2020, 14:35
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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A road decreases from 80 to 60 and if you are 100 (many roads in Switzerland are 80 they would be 130 in other country around) you are evil.
Maybe don't do 100 when the limit is 80 to begin with?
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Old 08.08.2020, 14:37
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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From this thread i see this logic:
A road decreases from 80 to 60 and if you are 100 (many roads in Switzerland are 80 they would be 130 in other country around) you are evil.
No. You're an idiot. And the limit for non-motorways in France is 90, Germany 100, Austria 100, Italy 100 - so you're also an ignorant idiot.
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So much better to drink 1L of wine and drive at 40.
Nope.
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PS: This post is a vent of driving a lot Zurich to Konstanz and see a lot of 80 and 100 limit and this can be only to terrible driving formation.
"Formation" = training?

Nope. The national speed limit is 80, except for vehicle only stretches which are 100 and motorways 120. If you can't handle speed limits, then stop driving. They're not difficult to stick to.

Speeding tickets above 100CHF are an optional tax. Below that - who cares?
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Old 08.08.2020, 14:44
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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No. You're an idiot. And the limit for non-motorways in France is 90, Germany 100, Austria 100, Italy 100 - so you're also an ignorant idiot.
In many areas of France this has been reduced to 80 where the opposing lanes are not separated. Implementation is spotty though.
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Old 08.08.2020, 14:48
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

To not change the direction of this post. I drive all over around Europe.
I obey limits because it is law but clearly in Switzerland they do not know how to drive.

Any Swiss champion of Rally? Of course not, it is needed judgement skills.

If you read Road Safety Worldwide reports where i am very involved because i love auto sport and defensive drive you can see Pedestrians killed and cyclists Switzerland is in top of 2010-2020.

This is because of no training how a car brakes. Most of swiss people i asked to show me how to break to 80 to 0 they lock the breaks.

People here cross the zebras with phones on their heads. Cyclists have no idea. I have talked to many and they do not know the right side of a car is a blind spot. Oh my god...any kid with 5 in Portugal knows that.

What law people do? Reduce speed....what about not reduce speed and educate people and how to behave? Only in Switzerland
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Old 08.08.2020, 14:55
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Re: Speeding 105 in a 60 zone

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If you read Road Safety Worldwide reports where i am very involved because i love auto sport and defensive drive you can see Pedestrians killed and cyclists Switzerland is in top of 2010-2020.
Average to bellow average compared with the EU.


https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_...edestrians.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_...x_cyclists.pdf
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