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Old 20.08.2020, 09:57
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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Actually not necessarily. Apart from the cars driven by the knobs referred to earlier, at 50 KmH much of the noise comes from the tyres.
According to the bafu research, above 60 km/h the tire noise is stronger than the engine noise (on average). The tires of heavier cars (SUVs, electric cars) are noisier due to the load they carry. Lovely V12s and flat 6s are on the upper boundary of engine noise



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Old 20.08.2020, 13:59
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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I wonder what is the point of putting signs like this? "No turning right" in very big sign, and then "only for trucks" in a much smaller sign beneath it (e.g. in Renens), or this one in Jestetten (I had seen a similar one in Lausanne's Avenue Vinet before so didn't "fall" for it ).
Considering there is actually no text but just a black arrow in a red circle and a truck pictogram beneath it? Super easy to recognize, no need to read anything or understand a foreign language to see that it not applies to oneself.


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Don't they cause confusion?
What is the worst case? You go a bit slower and might make a detour. If it confuses you, you might take some time to revise the traffic rules and signs before you hit the road again.
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Old 20.08.2020, 13:59
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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I wonder what is the point of putting signs like this? "No turning right" in very big sign, and then "only for trucks" in a much smaller sign beneath it (e.g. in Renens), or this one in Jestetten (I had seen a similar one in Lausanne's Avenue Vinet before so didn't "fall" for it ).

Don't they cause confusion?

By the way, they have this in Austria by default in Autobahns (110 vs 130), and again there are signs by the side of the highway with a big "110" on them :-|
I think it boils down to: you have two possible errors and you choose what error is considered worse.
It is considered that "doing 30 max while the limit is 50" is less dangerous then "doing 50 while the limit is 30", so the 30 is the big sign, and explanation to when you go 50 is small.

In the same way, when a traffic light needs to signal that it is green only towards some direction, you have a main red light + green arrows, you don't have main green light + red arrows: burning a red light is worse than pissing off some cards behind that are in a hurry
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Old 20.08.2020, 15:21
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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Considering there is actually no text but just a black arrow in a red circle and a truck pictogram beneath it? Super easy to recognize, no need to read anything or understand a foreign language to see that it not applies to oneself.



What is the worst case? You go a bit slower and might make a detour. If it confuses you, you might take some time to revise the traffic rules and signs before you hit the road again.
The detour yes, but going 30 when there are cars (with certain license plate codes) behind you may annoy them and even cause issues if they assume you should be going faster.

by the way, I am the one who always goes slower if in doubt, even if it means annoying guys behind me (I will stop in the right and let them overtake if that's possible), so ...
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Old 20.08.2020, 15:31
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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USo far the new regime applies to one road only, to Zürich's Höschgasse. But unless this idiocy is stopped more are guaranteed to follow, Rykart is quoted by the Tagesanzeiger with "This will definitely not remain the only such road, or the last."
The news paper is wrong. This is not the first time such signs are posted in Zurich. 2018 there was an experimental phase, and several streets where marked with this. in the beginning the sign with the times was rather small and some driver drove 30 km/h all the time.

Initial experiment: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/i...i/180703a.html
Outcome/conclussions: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/i...i/190705a.html
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Old 20.08.2020, 16:57
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

I don't think it's a problem as long as they don't start setting up speed traps that switch speed by themselves. But it would be unproportionate since the noise reduction will be achieved even if some drivers forget the limit sometimes.
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Old 21.08.2020, 10:36
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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I wonder what is the point of putting signs like this? "No turning right" in very big sign, and then "only for trucks" in a much smaller sign beneath it (e.g. in Renens), or this one in Jestetten (I had seen a similar one in Lausanne's Avenue Vinet before so didn't "fall" for it ).

Don't they cause confusion?

By the way, they have this in Austria by default in Autobahns (110 vs 130), and again there are signs by the side of the highway with a big "110" on them :-|
The Jestetten one is clear, it says "Lärmschutz". As that town seems to be a pure shopping town, I guess people used to just roar through it at nights.
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Old 21.08.2020, 11:40
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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The detour yes, but going 30 when there are cars (with certain license plate codes) behind you may annoy them and even cause issues if they assume you should be going faster.

by the way, I am the one who always goes slower if in doubt, even if it means annoying guys behind me (I will stop in the right and let them overtake if that's possible), so ...
I agree . Safety must go first and if in doubt it’s always better to be too slow than too fast . Even if that may piss some people off .

When trapped behind somebody who is going too slow I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he has a valid reason .
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Old 21.08.2020, 14:26
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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Next step is then to add big concrete blocks right in the middle of the street, like they have done here for all 30km/h zones, if possible just before a hilltop.
The problem with that 30/50 idiocy is that none of those measures is appropriate. You can't have a road block and a "ramp" because it's 50, but you should because it's 30.

IMHO the way roads are built nowadays makes a lot of sense. Perhaps with the exception of distinguishing 50 from 60 you don't really need the speed signs because the road itself tells you the speed limit. This principle is broken and voided with the introduction of the 30/50 roads, that's why (together with the consequences of driving 20 too fast) they're idiotic in epic dimensions.
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Old 21.08.2020, 14:30
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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The news paper is wrong. This is not the first time such signs are posted in Zurich. 2018 there was an experimental phase, and several streets where marked with this. in the beginning the sign with the times was rather small and some driver drove 30 km/h all the time.

Initial experiment: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/i...i/180703a.html
Outcome/conclussions: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/i...i/190705a.html
Apparently this kind of changing speed limits was introduced earlier elsewhere, this should have been mentioned as well.
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  #31  
Old 21.08.2020, 14:34
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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Considering there is actually no text but just a black arrow in a red circle and a truck pictogram beneath it? Super easy to recognize, no need to read anything or understand a foreign language to see that it not applies to oneself.



What is the worst case? You go a bit slower and might make a detour. If it confuses you, you might take some time to revise the traffic rules and signs before you hit the road again.
We need justice. If they fine 500 chf each kid crossing with headphones or headsets even on Zebra for me is fine.

Each bycicle driver that crosses a zebra riding on it...500 chf

The world would be perfect. As you can see by news the bycicles accidents are the problem in Switzerland.

Now the question. Do bycicle drivers have driving license? Who was here first? The cars or bycicles?

Reducing speeds to 30 make people turn into bycicles. So enforce they have driving license. A proper one. They go in road they need to know EVERYTHING about roads

PS: Every car driver needs to know limits and road signs for trucks and so on. Make the same for bycicles.

PS2: Some bycicle drivers do not even know that the car driver can not see the right wing of the car. They do not know a 1,5 ton car takes some dozens of meters to stop. These people not even walking
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Old 21.08.2020, 15:56
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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Cars in dense cities just don't work for commute .
I have a car myself but would dare to drive it within Zurich. There is tram and bike for that. Part of city life
Indeed, we were in Zurich Wednesday/Thursday and left the car in the hotel's garage and took public transport round the city. Very easy and efficient, even more so using the "Easy-Ride" feature on the SBB app.
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Old 21.08.2020, 16:53
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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PS2: Some bycicle drivers do not even know that the car driver can not see the right wing of the car. They do not know a 1,5 ton car takes some dozens of meters to stop. These people not even walking

Is there something wrong with your neck?


I can see all around my car, but sometimes I need to turn my head a little
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Old 21.08.2020, 17:28
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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They go in road they need to know EVERYTHING about roads
This does, in principle, makes sense - but you need to draw the line somewhere. Pedestrians are also traffic participants, but we do not require to pass a driving theory test if you want to go out of your home.
In the same way, you are allowed to chill on an inflatable flamingo near the lake shore without having a boat driving license
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Old 21.08.2020, 17:54
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

They shouldn't limit a speed, it makes very little sense as mention above by many. Such limitation just imitates a solution, but doesn't provide a real one.

It would be much better to create a noise measuring standards and a system of preventing noisy vehicles on the road.



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PS2: Some bycicle drivers do not even know that the car driver can not see the right wing of the car. They do not know a 1,5 ton car takes some dozens of meters to stop. These people not even walking

Ar you driving an F1 cart or what?



If you mean, that some cyclists change lanes to make a turn or pass by another cyclist or a static obstacle without any signal, then I would agree to you, it is really dangerous sometimes. But otherwise it is a drivers responsibility to prevent any collision on his right side (right hand rule is relevant for Switzerland, as far as I was told by driving instructors recently).



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Now the question. Do bycicle drivers have driving license? Who was here first? The cars or bycicles?

Hate to bring that up, but actually bicycles where invented earlier and used for about a century longer, than road vehicles with an internal combustion engine. And before that there were horses and carriages. But how is that relevant to the modern day traffic regulation at all?
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Old 21.08.2020, 17:59
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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Is there something wrong with your neck?


I can see all around my car, but sometimes I need to turn my head a little
You are not an engineer right? Why are they implementing 360 cameras and right bike warning specially in traffic lights?

You can not see 360 degrees in any car without loosing focus

One thing is if it is possible. There is a joke around internet how in 70s we had no seat belt, we had 7 people in a 5 car people and we survived.

However safety is not about what is possible. Is what is safety.

If you check latest warning development by enginners they warn you about a bike approaching by passenger side.

Also cars also warn blind spot (do you know what blind means) for other cars. If you can see around why these systems exist for 10 years?

So you are overtaking a car at 100 and you look back? Wow what a racing driver.
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Old 21.08.2020, 18:12
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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They shouldn't limit a speed, it makes very little sense as mention above by many. Such limitation just imitates a solution, but doesn't provide a real one.

It would be much better to create a noise measuring standards and a system of preventing noisy vehicles on the road.






Ar you driving an F1 cart or what?



If you mean, that some cyclists change lanes to make a turn or pass by another cyclist or a static obstacle without any signal, then I would agree to you, it is really dangerous sometimes. But otherwise it is a drivers responsibility to prevent any collision on his right side (right hand rule is relevant for Switzerland, as far as I was told by driving instructors recently).






Hate to bring that up, but actually bicycles where invented earlier and used for about a century longer, than road vehicles with an internal combustion engine. And before that there were horses and carriages. But how is that relevant to the modern day traffic regulation at all?
My posts are frequently sarcastic. What i mean is traffic density. We are all about defending bycicles and pedestrians.

I think that is wrong. The city is for everybody. As the other user above recommends people should turn their neck. I am so happy about that is being said.

Why pedestrians do not turn their neck to car drivers and make eye contact and check if everything goes well.

In Zurich (now i am since 2 months in Porto) with all speed restrictions there is something stupid for me: People cross looking in front. Why not looking to the drivers and bycicle drivers coming in their way.

For me that is a big go back in humanity. So they think: I am crossing a zebra, i can be an ass%%% because i have priority.

I always look to drivers when crossing and in 9 years not even 1 bad situation. I do not know why but when i am driving i rev and they look. Finally . If i go at 30 i will have much more time to rev. I understand the limitation now

PS: I do not know how people see a city but..you have the workers from real estate, trucks from coop, migros and so on. And you say the city is for the dog walker that walks 1 hour the dog into zebras when the drivers from migros, coop, denner are driving 8 hours has nothing to say. Strange thought my friend

Last edited by Superfast; 21.08.2020 at 20:00.
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Old 21.08.2020, 22:27
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Re: New speed trap: Speed limit switching 30km/h <-> 50km/h introduced

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My posts are frequently sarcastic. What i mean is traffic density. We are all about defending bycicles and pedestrians.

I think that is wrong. The city is for everybody.
In the 70s, traffic accidents were the most frequent cause of death and severe brain damage in young children in Switzerland and probably elsewhere. At the time, drivers were hardly even fined. Legal opinion agreed that it was the kids‘ „fault“ for running out on the street.

Things went on very differently from that point in different countries. In parts of the US, you can be fined for letting your 10yo walk to school alone. Unsurprisingly, the country now has an obesity epidemic. In the Netherlands, they decided to „stop de kindermoord“ and make roads safer. Switzerland is somewhere in between. Bike lanes in Zurich have an irritating habit of ending in tight spots.

I absolutely agree that the city is for everybody. Thing is, not everyone can drive a car or even ride a bike. We owe it to the weaker members of our society to keep cities walkable. Not only to children: when you‘re old and your hearing and vision are going, you may well be grateful. As for traffic density... d‘you know this pic? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/85...8c5c90bb0e.jpg

Last edited by missenglish; 21.08.2020 at 23:11.
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