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  #21  
Old 15.09.2020, 17:38
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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Slightly off topic:

If you are driving in right lane , speed limit is 80, you are going 80.
Left lane is slow, cars are going at 70 .
Does this consider as overtaking from right?

Though it does not happen often but have seen it few times, specially at interchanges where Left/Overtaking lane is slower than the right lane.
Yes, you need to slow down to 70
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  #22  
Old 15.09.2020, 18:28
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

Guys I am overwhelmed with the amount of input I found now on here !I very much thank you all for doing this !!!
Most of you got the facts right , now I will try to make it a little more clear .
1. im driving on the slow lane on a motorway , im in the tunnel , limit its 100 , I followed that tunnel
2. here in the tunnel or right after I over took her but without any purpose of doing that I did not increase my speed or anything , I kept my speed when / if she slowed down without any signals of willing to change lanes , so I left her some place behind me . to be honest I did not pay attention to this R side overtake as it was the first time I hear its not legal the way I did it
3. I was out of the tunnel more then 500 m when I checked L Mirror and noticed she was kind of sliding towards me , then looked at her and noticed she was not looking at traffic ahead , I panicked L-R manoeuvre , we hit .....
4. police said we would have hit anyway ,apparently its clear on the video that she was coming towards me
so for me the accident was here , maybe 1 minute after I overtook her , they looked back to the videos , maybe I overtook her before the tunnel then 1 km in the tunnel all good and then accident - bang my fault !!! its like ok , you are guilty for leaving with your car away this morning if you understand my meaning .
please recommend me one lawyer for auto accidents and also a company that have a good insurance for this matters to make this for the future !
thank you once again to you all !!!
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  #23  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:01
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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Following-up on the discussion: since undertaking is such a serious driving offence, what are you legally allowed to do when there's a slow car on the left lane on a two lane motorway? Is there anything you can do except slowing down to their speed, seeing that even undertaking and staying on the lane afterwards is forbidden?

There was a mention of lanes with distinct destinations, according to road signs: is it allowed to undertake there or is it a common sense, not really enforced but prohibited by law? There are many places on motorways, where this could be dangerous - you undertake and the car on your left discovers in the last second that they're on the wrong lane. This might lead to an accident very quickly, since many drivers make intuitive right turn without properly observing their blind spots.
AFAIK the swiss rules do not consider the very common situation of a slow car in the left lane. If the lanes are signposted for different destinations, I had understood that the new regulations allow passing on the right, but I can find no reference to this
https://www.tcs.ch/de/testberichte-r...ueberholen.php
Drivers beware; the lane rules in Switzerland are generally unique.
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  #24  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:04
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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The only exception seems to be stop&go traffic when the highway becomes a parking lot.
So if in a hypothetical situation a car on the highway left lane slows down to let's say 10 and does not intend to change the lane for whatever reason, and you are driving on the standard right lane, you are also supposed to slow down to 10 and not overtake?

edit: i see the question already asked, but no response.
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  #25  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:07
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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Following-up on the discussion: since undertaking is such a serious driving offence, what are you legally allowed to do when there's a slow car on the left lane on a two lane motorway? Is there anything you can do except slowing down to their speed, seeing that even undertaking and staying on the lane afterwards is forbidden?

There was a mention of lanes with distinct destinations, according to road signs: is it allowed to undertake there or is it a common sense, not really enforced but prohibited by law? There are many places on motorways, where this could be dangerous - you undertake and the car on your left discovers in the last second that they're on the wrong lane. This might lead to an accident very quickly, since many drivers make intuitive right turn without properly observing their blind spots.
Get behind them and flash with high beams to signal intention to overtake.
Regarding the second question you are exactly right, it's better avoided because of that kind of people. When it is inevitable, be ready to break and don't stay in anyone's blindspot. Indeed if everyone kept their distances in those situations merging etc. would be much easier.
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  #26  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:13
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So if in a hypothetical situation a car on the highway left lane slows down to let's say 10 and does not intend to change the lane for whatever reason, and you are driving on the standard right lane, you are also supposed to slow down to 10 and not overtake?
yes that's right this is what the police officer said to me . now I do slow down no matter what when im on the right lane .
I know if I was coming from behind her , go slow lane , overtake her and then go in front of her its aggressive driving and no no no everywhere , but I was driving within all the limits , she was clearly hitting me in the next 2-3 seconds because she was not looking ahead where the car was going and still my fault its hurts , im not an aggressive driver , im 35 years old , im way past those days when life was just about adrenaline , she scared me , on my right was a deep fall down .... I badly reacted also might be the case but if she was looking ahead none of this would have happened .

if they want to look back to the moment I overtook her on slow lane perhaps they can check with cameras all my journey from point A to point B and see im a careful driver not the usual bmw type of driver that does not use lights when changes lines and goes all the way smoking everyone due to his ego .

Last edited by roegner; 15.09.2020 at 19:36. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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  #27  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:30
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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Following-up on the discussion: since undertaking is such a serious driving offence, what are you legally allowed to do when there's a slow car on the left lane on a two lane motorway? Is there anything you can do except slowing down to their speed, seeing that even undertaking and staying on the lane afterwards is forbidden?
If it is a single idiot on the left lane you are allowed to to the following:
With appropriate distance you can flash him once, max twice with the high beam. Keep distance and wait till the other driver moves over. Do not tail gate or repeatedly flash the head lights.

Rule for appropriate distance is at least 2 seconds or half in meters what your speedometer shows in km/h. For example if you go 100 km/h you should have 50 meter distance. The second definition gives a slightly shorter distance, as the first results in 55.55 meters.

50 meters is exactly as far as the guide posts/reflectors on the right side are apart. 55 meters can be estimated using the road markings, it is roughly 3 white dashes and spaces. Or use a reference point (look at shadow) and count 1-dumb-ass-driver, 2-dumb-as-driver. If your sooner at the reference point increase your distance.

If your distance is less than 0.6 seconds or less than 1/6 of your speedo meter it is considered a serious traffic infraction (monetary penalty plus at least 3 month ban). At 100 km/h this is 16.666 meters. Or using the road markings on the autobahn one dash and one space.
https://www.lw-p.ch/de/rechtsthemen/...rassenverkehr/



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Slightly off topic:

If you are driving in right lane , speed limit is 80, you are going 80.
Left lane is slow, cars are going at 70 .
Does this consider as overtaking from right?
Generally yes it is overtaking. Or to use the words of the federal court: "Overtaking is when a faster vehicle catches up with a slower vehicle ahead in the same direction, passes it and continues its journey in front of it, whereby neither swinging out nor turning back is a necessary condition for overtaking" (BGE 6B_216/2018 and also in BGE 142 IV 93, 133 II 58, and 126 IV 192)

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Though it does not happen often but have seen it few times, specially at interchanges where Left/Overtaking lane is slower than the right lane.
Here the cases where it is permitted on the autobahn:
- On the acceleration strip as long as there are not only dashes (very important on the now more and more common extra long acceleration strips). Art. 36 Abs. 5 lit. c VRV
- On the deceleration strip/exit ramp. Art. 36 Abs. 5 lit. d VRV
- On lanes with different destination the the one to your left. But only when they are distinctly different. Not from the pre-signal (splitting arrow). Art. 36. Abs. 5 lit. b VRV and federal court rulings. Examples: Not yet o.k: https://goo.gl/maps/KWqhRwbNA1tAyby46 o.k.: https://goo.gl/maps/hXJaiz6LwiudMCDm9
- And finally when there is dense traffic (Kollonenverkehr). Art. 36 Abs. 5 lit. a VRV and federal court rulings. My own definition of dense traffic is if I cannot change the lane w/o doing a serious traffic infractions. Or in other words if the distance between the cars on the other lane is less than 1.2 seconds, because if I would merge I will have less than 0.6 seconds to the car in the front of me and/or to the car behind me. If I get a citation that would be my excuse and defense strategy all the way to the federal court. In the best case I never get a citation as the police shares my view, in next best case I get acquitted, and in the worst case we all get a federal court ruling were we know what dense traffic (Kollonenverkehr) actually should objectively mean.

See also: https://www.tcs.ch/de/testberichte-r...holvorgang.php
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Last edited by roegner; 15.09.2020 at 19:35. Reason: Fixed quote
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  #28  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:41
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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if they want to look back to the moment I overtook her on slow lane perhaps they can check with cameras all my journey from point A to point B and see im a careful driver not the usual bmw type of driver that does not use lights when changes lines and goes all the way smoking everyone due to his ego .
Doesn't matter how good a driver you had been in the past. You even have the benefit of doubt that you were always a good driver. All what matters is this one single situation.

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2. here in the tunnel or right after I over took her but without any purpose of doing that I did not increase my speed or anything , I kept my speed when / if she slowed down without any signals of willing to change lanes , so I left her some place behind me . to be honest I did not pay attention to this R side overtake as it was the first time I hear its not legal the way I did it
3. I was out of the tunnel more then 500 m when I checked L Mirror and noticed she was kind of sliding towards me
Not it sounds like you did not fully overtake her but coasted by her side. Like you have been overtaking here very slowly for a very long distance. This does not exonerate you but explains what the police might have seen on the video.
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  #29  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:46
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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Get behind them and flash with high beams to signal intention to overtake.
why on earth would I need to change the lane (from left to right) just to get behind an idiot who is driving slow in the fast lane?
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  #30  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:47
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

and please worst case scenario for me would be ?
thank you everyone of you for your input
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  #31  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:49
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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If it is a single idiot on the left lane you are allowed to to the following:
With appropriate distance you can flash him once, max twice with the high beam. Keep distance and wait till the other driver moves over. Do not tail gate or repeatedly flash the head lights.

Rule for appropriate distance is at least 2 seconds or half in meters what your speedometer shows in km/h. For example if you go 100 km/h you should have 50 meter distance. The second definition gives a slightly shorter distance, as the first results in 55.55 meters.
and if he drives 10 km/h in the left lane, how many times can you flash, and what is the appropriate distance?

seriously!
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Old 15.09.2020, 19:49
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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why on earth would I need to change the lane (from left to right) just to get behind an idiot who is driving slow in the fast lane?
you got it all wrong , she was not looking
I was on slow line slitty faster then her ..
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Old 15.09.2020, 19:50
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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and please worst case scenario for me would be ?
thank you everyone of you for your input
getting trashed in this forum. getting a fine from the police is nothing in comparison what is awaiting you here.
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  #34  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:51
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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So if in a hypothetical situation a car on the highway left lane slows down to let's say 10 and does not intend to change the lane for whatever reason, and you are driving on the standard right lane, you are also supposed to slow down to 10 and not overtake?.
Yes. If the roads are clear ahead, you may not overtake on the inside. Only if the left hand lane, is clogged and traffic is generally slowing down.

When I was commuting Basel <-> Vaud, I learned as soon as there's congestion, dive right. You'll have far greater stopping distance, and you'll easily outpace the morons who think the left hand lane is the "fast lane". I understand the legal difficulties, so when I do it I make sure I'm well over to the right.

I discovered this when commuting on the M25 from J26 to J17 and back for two years (Swap left for right). I wondered why I kept overtaking the same lorries. Then I twigged. They're actually going faster than me because they don't keep trying to overtake.

I got 25 from New Scientist for that anecdote...
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Old 15.09.2020, 19:52
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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you got it all wrong , she was not looking
I was on slow line slitty faster then her ..

Not sure if it is me who got it all wrong...
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  #36  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:54
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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you got it all wrong , she was not looking
I was on slow line slitty faster then her ..
She was doing a bad thing.
You were doing worse.

Legally. That's how it is. Live with it and drive accordingly. When you get your license back, and can afford to run a car.
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  #37  
Old 15.09.2020, 20:01
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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you got it all wrong , she was not looking
I was on slow line slitty faster then her ..
I do not know if it is a consolidation but it is very likely she go a citation too. In an accident it is very possible that both parties did something wrong and accordingly will be penalized. Most importantly independently from each other. Their case is their case, and your case is your case.
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:05
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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If it is a single idiot on the left lane you are allowed to to the following:
With appropriate distance you can flash him once, max twice with the high beam. Keep distance and wait till the other driver moves over. Do not tail gate or repeatedly flash the head lights.
Does the official Federal rule use the word 'idiot' or does it actually state the speed difference required that warrants the high-beam flash?

It's just that you are normally very diligent in providing links to any laws and you didn't in this instance.
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:06
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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and if he drives 10 km/h in the left lane, how many times can you flash, and what is the appropriate distance?
The appropriate action would be to call the police. If they drive all for them alone, in the normal or passing lane, with just 10 km/h then might have a serious health problem of some kind. No amount of flashing or honking might change that.
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:10
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

Now its all clear .
I've learned something from it that's for sure , as mentioned above im no longer doing that . Thank you all for taking your time to read and post on here trying to help .
it does not make me feel any better knowing that the lady might get a penalty too , all I hope its that she will also learn something so the roads will be safer , that's what matters in the end - the health and not the damage of the metal or the fine ....
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