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Old 15.09.2020, 10:02
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advise - infos please on car accident

Hello my name is Alex , I live in Luzern canton .
about 2 weeks ago I had to travel to St Gallen , on my way back home I had an auto accident :
I drive a bmw120i , I was coming out of a tunnel with my wife in the car so at about 4-500 m from the tunnel exit I looked in the mirrors ( to inform myself of the traffic around me I do this from time to time ) so I was on the highway and I was on less faster lane (right side of this 2 lines ) and when I checked the 2 mirror I could see a blue car coming towards me , like I could tell she will hit me on the L side / back of my car , immediately after I looked throw my L window , she was with the car on like 20 degree angle from the back of my shoulder as I was sitting in my driver seat when I saw the driver in the other car with the head down checking for something in her car like where the changing gear its located . I panicked and I thought if I do a R/L with my car she might have enough room to go behind me . Unfortunately my car start balancing L-R at that point , we hit and then I ended up on the fast line and she drove another 6-700 m and stopped on the R side of the road .
Her car has nothing major on R front side , mine had some damage on the L back but its drivable as she did not hit my back wheel but only the metal protection... so thank God we are all ok and its just the metal damaged .
Now the problems start for real as I was told ....
when I stopped behind her I asked her if she called the police she said not jet and then her husband did . We got at a police station where I stayed from like 15:00 until 18:00 and was asked all sorts of questions : how many cars passed you on the L side in the past 10 min , how often do you check mirrors , what colour were the cars that passed you ....
anyway apparently the police officer saw the video outside the tunnel in the tunnel I dont know and was clear that the car was about to hit me but he also stated that I overtook this car on the slow line prior to the accident , I was driving within the limits as far as I remember she did not had any lighting signal showing that she wants to exchange lines but the police officer said that the accident would not have happened if I did not overtook her before , I explained to him that I drove all the time within the limits and I had no purpose in overtaking her on this line but if she slowed down and the road ahead of me was clear and she had no intention changing lines that might have happened .In the end they gave me no copy of the actual report they made just a paper with names of the persons involved and said I should send this to my insurance company , also at some point he said he will charge me on this accident because here you never ever overtake someone on the R side even if I tried to make clear to him the facts .... I came out of the tunnel with 100 km/h and I did not do 140km/h or more just to go past her car ....
any lawyer here or similar situations to share experience please !
I should expect a period of banned for driving 1-3 months , a fine which I believe will be over 5k ... to fix my car and her car with my insurance company and a criminal record that will stay for some years on my back and every other driving offence will be more severe prosecuted - this criminal records its what bothers me . also if any of you can recommend me an lawyer insurance for the future for this kind of situations I will very much appreciate .
Safe roads to everyone and all the best !!!
thank you !
Alex
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Old 15.09.2020, 13:31
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

I've tried to process what you say here.

- You were driving through a tunnel and saw a car in your mirror that was going faster than you and appeared to be heading towards you
- The driver seemed to be looking down
- You went from side to side to try to avoid her hitting you and, in doing so, hit her?

From what you've posted, that's the best I can make out.

Do you have a diagram to hand? There used to be a brilliant one on the forum showing how it's done but it seems inaccessible.
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:15
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

I think this is what happened:

In the inside lane in a tunnel 400-500m from the exit. Check mirrors, blue car moving faster came up behind, looking like it will the back left of his car. Looked through driver's window, and saw the other driver coming toward me at an angle, seemingly not watching the road, but looking down.

The OP panicked, and thought if he swerved right then left, it might avoid a collision. Unfortunately, his car started to fishtail, and a collision ensued, ending up with him on the outside land, and she another 6-700m further up (presumably out of the tunnel at this stage) on the right hand side of the road.

The woman driving the other car's husband called the police. The OP was interrogate about what he remembered about the drive. There was CCTV somewhere in or out of the tunnel, and the police officer said that the OP had overtaken the woman on the inside. The OP does not dispute this, but says she didn't signal. The officer stated it was his fault for overtaking on the inside.

The OP said he wasn't intentionally overtaking her, but she slowed down, and gave no indication she wanted to change lane. The road was clear ahead.

He has been told he faces a driving ban, 1-3 months, a 5K+ fine, that his insurance will pay for the car repairs, he will be treated more harshly for any future driving offences and he will have a criminal record.
@OP - overtaking on the inside is forbidden in Switzerland. You are only allowed to pass on the inside in slow moving traffic. It's a far more serious offence than blocking a lane. The fact it happened in a tunnel makes it worse. The accident was your fault, from what you've described.

Your best bet, if called or have to give a mitigation is to apologise profusely and accept that what you did was dangerous and wrong, and you'll NEVER do it again.

You were unlucky in that most of the time, you'd get away with it.
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:42
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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You were unlucky in that most of the time, you'd get away with it.
I've done it before, and having read his sorry tale, I won't be doing it again.
So, every cloud.....
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:47
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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I think this is what happened:

It's difficult to tell from the English.

The other car came up from behind, overtook or came level with the OPs car while drifting right as if wishing to change lanes and then at this time slowing down. The OP thought that the best course of action was to neither brake nor speed up but to swerve to the right to avoid the car and pass it so the car goes in the lane behind him rather than in front. Somehow or other this caused him to lose control (not sure how that's possible) and the cars collided. Is that right?


Sounds like a case of someone cutting up the OP to change lanes but the OP not wanting to allow it, perhaps with the thought "well they're not indicating so I'm not going to make space for them"?


Or the other car cut up the OP so fast and was slowing down so much that the OP had no choice but to swerve and had no choice but to undertake the car (or at least come level) and the other car caused the OP to lose control. This version is more likely to be on the OP's insurance report.



While on the roads there is the principle of right of way, there is also the principle that one should drive in a way to avoid an accident, something which seems to very often be forgotten in Switzerland. "You're in the wrong so I'll drive into you and I'll get a new car from the insurance".



I'm not sure what relevance the make and model of the OPs car is

Last edited by Landers; 15.09.2020 at 14:58.
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Old 15.09.2020, 15:08
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

Hi,

Here's a reference to passing other cars using the right lane (slow one in your words). Art 35 of the Swiss road traffic law. Basically, you cannot pass anyone using the right lane. The only exception seems to be stop&go traffic when the highway becomes a parking lot.https://lenews.ch/2017/11/09/passing...n-switzerland/

Also, it seems you were on her blind spot. Careful when being in that relative position to the other car, they don't see you unless they're good drivers and the most probable outcome is they'll do an stupid thing that may scare you.

The worst place for a traffic offense is a tunnel, they're entirely covered by cameras. The most charitable interpretation from your text is that passing on the right lane had no effect on the accident, that the cause was another one. But, if the police officer already concluded something, that conclusion needs to be overturned........even if you're right, not sure how much it will cost to dispute the accident investigation.

Sorry to say this but you're in a very risky position. Any lawyer with low ethics will happily invoice you working hours only to explain you the traffic law. So, read the law and if you see a possibility of changing the decision then contact a lawyer.
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Old 15.09.2020, 17:06
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

All this analysing when all he wants to know is a good legal insurance to cover such things in the future.
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:04
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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The only exception seems to be stop&go traffic when the highway becomes a parking lot.
So if in a hypothetical situation a car on the highway left lane slows down to let's say 10 and does not intend to change the lane for whatever reason, and you are driving on the standard right lane, you are also supposed to slow down to 10 and not overtake?

edit: i see the question already asked, but no response.
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:20
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

First, the lane to the far right is not the "slow lane" but the normal, standard lane. If you are not overtaking an other car you should drive in that lane. Regardless if you are going just 80 km/h or 150 km/h. Accordingly, the left hand lane(s) are known as passing lanes.

Second, if I understand it correctly you are accused of passing on the right, a very big no go on the autobahn when there is no dense traffic or you are on a lane with a distinct other destination then the one to your right. Very, very big no go. In addition do that you are accused of cutting in the front of the other car and causing an accident. In addition you admitted that you were not aware of your surroundings and you might have done what they accuse you of: "but if she slowed down and the road ahead of me was clear and she had no intention changing lines that might have happened."

Third, it looks like video evidence shows that you might have indeed passed the car to the right.

Now, as said, passing on the right is a no go. This alone, w/o any accident is allaready a serious traffic infraction according Art. 90 Abs. 2 SVG leading to a (supspended) monetary penalty and a at least three month ban according Art. 16c SVG. This is standard federal court ruling and can be considered as case law BGE 126 IV 192 .
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:27
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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Checking if the OP was driving with due care and attention, not just breaking the law by undertaking?
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First, the lane to the far right is not the "slow lane" but the normal, standard lane. If you are not overtaking an other car you should drive in that lane. Regardless if you are going just 80 km/h or 150 km/h. Accordingly, the left hand lane(s) are known as passing lanes.

Second, if I understand it correctly you are accused of passing on the right, a very big no go on the autobahn when there is no dense traffic or you are on a lane with a distinct other destination then the one to your right. Very, very big no go. In addition do that you are accused of cutting in the front of the other car and causing an accident. In addition you admitted that you were not aware of your surroundings and you might have done what they accuse you of: "but if she slowed down and the road ahead of me was clear and she had no intention changing lines that might have happened."

Third, it looks like video evidence shows that you might have indeed passed the car to the right.

Now, as said, passing on the right is a no go. This alone, w/o any accident is allaready a serious traffic infraction according Art. 90 Abs. 2 SVG leading to a (supspended) monetary penalty and a at least three month ban according Art. 16c SVG. This is standard federal court ruling and can be considered as case law BGE 126 IV 192 .
I remember a long time ago being at a police talk where the officer said that undertaking on the right is allowed as long as you stay in the lane (i.e. don't go back into the passing lane). Given the number of slow middle lane drivers I encounter here it's almost necessary sometimes to pass on the right hand side!
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:37
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

Don't forget there is the age-old Swiss charge of failing to properly control the vehicle you're driving. It's usually thrown towards those who crash for no apparent reason.

I don't know if that's in play here. It might be worth checking if your motor insurance covers you for some legal cover (or if you have separate legal cover, call them).

FWIW, to cause a modern car to fishtail like this requires some ham-fisted input from the driver.
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:46
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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I remember a long time ago being at a police talk where the officer said that undertaking on the right is allowed as long as you stay in the lane (i.e. don't go back into the passing lane). Given the number of slow middle lane drivers I encounter here it's almost necessary sometimes to pass on the right hand side!
you can overtake on the right if you remain in lane and do not accelerate. Beware that this can be interpreted by offices of the law (both police and Swiss citizens) as illegal and you will be punished.

it seems the OP lost control of his car, exited the tunnel weaving from lane to lane and crashed into another car. It strikes me that he may have overreacted based on the sentence he typed.
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Old 15.09.2020, 15:00
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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I remember a long time ago being at a police talk where the officer said that undertaking on the right is allowed as long as you stay in the lane
Art. 35 SVG state that you must pass/overtake on the left side. Legally you overtake also when you stay in your lane (see federal court ruling above).

Passing on two lanes ragardless of traffic is only permitted on urban two lane roads. On other roads, but specially on the autobahn it is only permitted in case of "dense traffic" (Kollonenverkehr) Art. 8 Abs 4. VRV and federal court rulling BGE 142 IV 93.

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you can overtake on the right if you remain in lane and do not accelerate. Beware that this can be interpreted by offices of the law (both police and Swiss citizens) as illegal and you will be punished.
.
In non dense traffic, and on the regular autobahn it is a big no no, Not only interpreted by police but also by judges all the way up to the federal court.
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Old 15.09.2020, 13:58
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

They have video evidence so you've got a very slim chance really. Also agree it's hard to understand from the description what actually happened.

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what colour were the cars that passed you ....
This seems quite an odd thing to ask, I doubt many people would remember the colour of the cars that have passed them on a motorway unless it would be a Lamborghini!
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:16
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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This seems quite an odd thing to ask, I doubt many people would remember the colour of the cars that have passed them on a motorway unless it would be a Lamborghini!
Checking if the OP was driving with due care and attention, not just breaking the law by undertaking?
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Old 16.09.2020, 16:00
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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I doubt many people would remember the colour of the cars that have passed them on a motorway unless it would be a Lamborghini!
And even then, only if it was this model:



Tom
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Old 15.09.2020, 14:04
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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......the police officer saw the video outside the tunnel in the tunnel..........I panicked and I thought if I do a R/L with my car she might have enough room to go behind me.......... he also stated that I overtook this car on the slow line prior to the accident.......that might have happened
Well it did happen, no might about it, it's there on the video.
It sounds to me like you overtook in the right hand lane, then moved into the outside lane, and you collided with the front nearside of her car.
Did she speed up when she noticed you undertaking thus causing the accident? Not according to the police as they have a video.


The police are saying that if you were not undertaking, the accident would not have happened. Sounds reasonable, and they have the evidence to prove it.

Otherwise they woud see you undertake and pass the car, then the car speed up and veer into you, which sounds unlikely, and is not supported by the evidence, obviously.

Last edited by CodPeace; 15.09.2020 at 14:40. Reason: Massive correction!
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Old 15.09.2020, 17:18
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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I drive a bmw120i

I propose a demotion to Mercedes.
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:41
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

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if they want to look back to the moment I overtook her on slow lane perhaps they can check with cameras all my journey from point A to point B and see im a careful driver not the usual bmw type of driver that does not use lights when changes lines and goes all the way smoking everyone due to his ego .
Doesn't matter how good a driver you had been in the past. You even have the benefit of doubt that you were always a good driver. All what matters is this one single situation.

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2. here in the tunnel or right after I over took her but without any purpose of doing that I did not increase my speed or anything , I kept my speed when / if she slowed down without any signals of willing to change lanes , so I left her some place behind me . to be honest I did not pay attention to this R side overtake as it was the first time I hear its not legal the way I did it
3. I was out of the tunnel more then 500 m when I checked L Mirror and noticed she was kind of sliding towards me
Not it sounds like you did not fully overtake her but coasted by her side. Like you have been overtaking here very slowly for a very long distance. This does not exonerate you but explains what the police might have seen on the video.
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:47
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Re: advise - infos please on car accident

and please worst case scenario for me would be ?
thank you everyone of you for your input
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