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Old 22.11.2020, 00:05
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Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

Hi,

I got flashed tonight driving away from Zurich. I was doing 60, thinking I was in the 60 zone when the speed limit is 50. It was 60 200m up the street. A couple of months ago I got flashed going into Zurich but was doing 54, so not so bad.

The issue I have is that this is a clear revenue raising exercise. The signage there in my opinion, in both directions is insufficient. It is not transparently clear where the 60 ends/begins and the 50 starts/ends. If it's that critical there should be very clear signage and there is not. I do not accept that I and the wider motoring public should be learning the changeover point through the medium of receiving speeding fines. A big sign saying "Welcome to Zurich, speed limit 50" or "Thanks for visiting Zurich, speed limit 60" seems the only credible way to fairly educate motorists.

Who would I raise this issue with? In anticipation of criticism, I'm just going to ignore it. I want to do something sensible, and honest and effect a positive change. Is there a medium for addressing this concern you can suggest?

Thanks,

Andy
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Old 22.11.2020, 00:36
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Who would I raise this issue with? In anticipation of criticism, I'm just going to ignore it. I want to do something sensible, and honest and effect a positive change. Is there a medium for addressing this concern you can suggest?
Start a referendum. Chances of success? 0%.

FWIW I, and many other folks, would agree that the siting of speed cameras is clearly intended to catch people breaking the limit where it's most likely that they will do so, i.e. where road conditions allow a driver not to feel that a given speed is inherently dangerous, even if it happens to be over the prescribed limit.

But in all honesty I don't feel that the primary motivation for this is revenue collection, but that the powers that be want everyone to actively stick to the speed limits all the time. Like it or not, you're bever going to change that view.
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Old 22.11.2020, 02:35
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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The issue I have is that this is a clear revenue raising exercise.
Then stop making voluntary contributions.
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Old 22.11.2020, 08:37
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

I'm generally in favor of permanent cameras, particularly near schools and other areas with high levels of pedestrian traffic. Where I start to slightly disagree is when I see temporary cameras have been set up. Yes I understand that some people may need the "threat" of a fine at times. I prefer those signs with a radar that show you how fast you're driving. If you know it's a 30 km/h zone and that sign shows a frowning face and says you're going 32 km/h, I would think most people would slow down. But to the OP's original point, I think it's on us as drivers to always read the road signs and understand that the speed limit can and does change.
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Old 22.11.2020, 09:02
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Hi,

I got flashed tonight driving away from Zurich. I was doing 60, thinking I was in the 60 zone when the speed limit is 50. It was 60 200m up the street. A couple of months ago I got flashed going into Zurich but was doing 54, so not so bad.

The issue I have is that this is a clear revenue raising exercise. The signage there in my opinion, in both directions is insufficient. It is not transparently clear where the 60 ends/begins and the 50 starts/ends. If it's that critical there should be very clear signage and there is not. I do not accept that I and the wider motoring public should be learning the changeover point through the medium of receiving speeding fines. A big sign saying "Welcome to Zurich, speed limit 50" or "Thanks for visiting Zurich, speed limit 60" seems the only credible way to fairly educate motorists.

Who would I raise this issue with? In anticipation of criticism, I'm just going to ignore it. I want to do something sensible, and honest and effect a positive change. Is there a medium for addressing this concern you can suggest?

Thanks,

Andy
The process of educating motorists is actually very clear - we even have tests and stuff like that.

One of the things we learn is that a sign with a red circle and a number in it is a speed limit. There's also a grey circle with a diagonal line across it which means that the standard limit applies for that type of road.

Then all you need to do is learn the standard limits - there's a helpful article on ch.ch which lists these along with the fines for breaking them, which you should find useful: https://www.ch.ch/en/driving-over-speed-limit/

So now you're set, shouldn't be a problem any more, but if you still feel under-educated you could do a driving course.
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Old 22.11.2020, 09:08
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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The process of educating motorists is actually very clear - we even have tests and stuff like that.

One of the things we learn is that a sign with a red circle and a number in it is a speed limit. There's also a grey circle with a diagonal line across it which means that the standard limit applies for that type of road.

Then all you need to do is learn the standard limits - there's a helpful article on ch.ch which lists these along with the fines for breaking them, which you should find useful: https://www.ch.ch/en/driving-over-speed-limit/

So now you're set, shouldn't be a problem any more, but if you still feel under-educated you could do a driving course.
That is a bit patronizing, isnīt it? Itīs not that Swiss do not get speeding tickets, or?
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Old 22.11.2020, 09:15
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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That is a bit patronizing, isnīt it? Itīs not that Swiss do not get speeding tickets, or?
It's a bit tongue in cheek - how else do you approach someone who thinks a referendum is the way to handle allegedly unclear road signage, which depending on how you interpret the post may have caught them twice.

OP doesn't even claim the signs aren't there, just that they should be bigger and IMO uglier (imaging a big "WELCOME TO ZURICH" sign on every minor road ).

To be fair, I did hold back from suggesting an eye test

ps. on the topic of the actual signage, I was leaving it up to a Tom to post the inevitable "photos or it didn't happen"

pps. oops, I realised it was Ace1 who mentioned the referendum! Sorry OP, my mistake.
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Old 22.11.2020, 10:21
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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I want to do something sensible, and honest and effect a positive change.
You could start with sticking to the speed limit
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Old 22.11.2020, 15:50
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

Fyi, warning people of the exact position of a speed camera in a public forum is not a good idea. As for your idea: no.
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Old 22.11.2020, 16:02
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Hi,

I got flashed so bad.

The issue I have is transparently clear ...

Who would I raise this issue with? In anticipation of criticism, I'm just going to ignore it. I want to do something sensible, and honest and effect a positive change. Is there a medium for addressing this concern you can suggest?

Thanks,

Andy
Hi Andy! Believe these guys could be interested: https://www.acs.ch/de/
Don't forget to pay your dues.
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Old 22.11.2020, 20:57
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

How more clear should it be made that it is now 60 ?
https://goo.gl/maps/fsyfyLCSEzBjZdrc7

(Street view is from 2014, the other side still shows the 60 wich has been reduced to 50 around ~2017)
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Old 23.11.2020, 08:37
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Hi,

I got flashed tonight driving away from Zurich. I was doing 60, thinking I was in the 60 zone when the speed limit is 50. It was 60 200m up the street. A couple of months ago I got flashed going into Zurich but was doing 54, so not so bad.

The issue I have is that this is a clear revenue raising exercise. The signage there in my opinion, in both directions is insufficient. It is not transparently clear where the 60 ends/begins and the 50 starts/ends. If it's that critical there should be very clear signage and there is not. I do not accept that I and the wider motoring public should be learning the changeover point through the medium of receiving speeding fines. A big sign saying "Welcome to Zurich, speed limit 50" or "Thanks for visiting Zurich, speed limit 60" seems the only credible way to fairly educate motorists.

Who would I raise this issue with? In anticipation of criticism, I'm just going to ignore it. I want to do something sensible, and honest and effect a positive change. Is there a medium for addressing this concern you can suggest?

Thanks,

Andy
Here's a tip: The 60 zone begins where the 60 sign is, and the 50 zone is where the 50 sign is. How much more signage do you need?

We all get speeding tickets, I have no patience for people that can't take responsibility for their own mistakes and just deal with it like a damn adult.
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Old 23.11.2020, 10:50
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

Going 60 at 50 km/h zone?

If your speedometer said 60 km/h, quite probably you were doing a bit less. 55-57 km/h. They apply a margin or error of 3 km/h, which brings the speeding to 52-55 km/h. That should be a ~40 CHF fine. Just be more careful next time.
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Old 23.11.2020, 15:05
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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But in all honesty I don't feel that the primary motivation for this is revenue collection, but that the powers that be want everyone to actively stick to the speed limits all the time. Like it or not, you're bever going to change that view.

Multiple interviews with KaPo officials from all over the country has proven that it is in fact a major source of revenue, and that this is actually the primary objective of the exercise. The fact that it has great return on investment, and they keep putting them everywhere, has as a side-effect the fact that more or less everyone abides.


tl;dr for the thread
guy gets pissed because the po-po positions cameras mainly to line their pockets
sanctimonious EFers have pitchforks out for guy getting semi-justifiably pissed at po-po, and fully justifiably annoyed for minorly up

just another Monday then
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Old 23.11.2020, 15:39
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Multiple interviews with KaPo officials from all over the country has proven that it is in fact a major source of revenue, and that this is actually the primary objective of the exercise. The fact that it has great return on investment, and they keep putting them everywhere, has as a side-effect the fact that more or less everyone abides.


tl;dr for the thread
guy gets pissed because the po-po positions cameras mainly to line their pockets
sanctimonious EFers have pitchforks out for guy getting semi-justifiably pissed at po-po, and fully justifiably annoyed for minorly up

just another Monday then
I guess there's a revenue angle, but how relevant is it? OP wrote being flashed a couple months ago, and once again last weekend. It could be bad luck because the "evil" polizei installs cameras all around the place, or something else.

My last fine was back on Feb 2020 on the A2 near Sursee, hope I finish the year with only one fine. Somehow professional drivers manage to drive in a month what average people (us) drive in a year and no fines. Are po-po cameras the difference here?
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Old 23.11.2020, 15:46
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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How more clear should it be made that it is now 60 ?
https://goo.gl/maps/fsyfyLCSEzBjZdrc7

(Street view is from 2014, the other side still shows the 60 wich has been reduced to 50 around ~2017)
Blimey, on both sides? That is rather unusual. It was probably meant to be idiotproof.
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Old 23.11.2020, 15:48
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Blimey, on both sides? That is rather unusual. It was probably meant to be idiotproof.
Still, some idiots had to pay the price. The camera existed already back then and for even much longer.
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Old 23.11.2020, 16:14
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Multiple interviews with KaPo officials from all over the country has proven that it is in fact a major source of revenue, and that this is actually the primary objective of the exercise. The fact that it has great return on investment, and they keep putting them everywhere, has as a side-effect the fact that more or less everyone abides.
Whether revenue is the prime motivator or not, the thing that I continue to find annoying is the fact that, unlike most other European countries, they site them at places of least danger, therefore highest chance that they'll catch people just over the limit where it might not actually be dangerous, rather than focussing on actual danger zones where speed has been shown to cause accidents, thereby reducing the number of said accidents.

I got flashed by one just a couple of weeks ago (first time in at least two years) in such a place that I hadn't even bothered to put on my camera warning app. Indicated 68 (-3) on a 60-limit country road that one could easily imagine to be an 80, 100chf fine. No, I'm not really complaining, one just has to pay up and accept it as part of living in Switzerland.
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Old 23.11.2020, 16:36
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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Whether revenue is the prime motivator or not, the thing that I continue to find annoying is the fact that, unlike most other European countries, they site them at places of least danger, therefore highest chance that they'll catch people just over the limit where it might not actually be dangerous, rather than focussing on actual danger zones where speed has been shown to cause accidents, thereby reducing the number of said accidents.
The "danger zones" as you imagine do not exists. You can check here were accidents actually have happened in the last nine years: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=de&to...eden_getoetete
As you see they are quite even distributed over the whole road network. You are properly most likely interested in the pink ones. Be aware: those are only accident where the police was on scene. Be amazed, where they have been.
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Old 23.11.2020, 16:49
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Re: Blitzer Seestrasse approach to Enge 50/60 zone

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..... the pink ones. Be aware: those are only accident where the police was on scene. Be amazed, where they have been.
Everybloodywhere? Except for the Alps.

I actually kind of agreed with Ace1 but I thought it was a Winterthur-thing.
I was also surprised to notice that the "Christmas Blitzers" are still not out yet. Guess even police needs less money for pressies this year when only two families are allowed to gather. Not that I ever contributed - they place them the same old same ol spots every year.
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