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  #41  
Old 26.01.2021, 16:57
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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Err, 120.

If it's bone dry the limit is 120, if it's raining, snowing or even completely covered by black ice the limit is still 120.
120 km/h or lower, all the way down to 0 km/h.

Art. 32 Abs. 1 Swiss Road Act
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The speed must always be adapted to the circumstances, in particular the special features of the vehicle and load, as well as the road, traffic and visibility conditions. Where the vehicle could interfere with traffic, it must be driven slowly and, if necessary, stopped, in particular before blind spots, before road junctions that are not clearly visible and before railroad crossings.
If nothing happens this is mostly irrelevant. If something happens they will use the above, plus the close cousin, the catch-me all clause Art. 31 Abs. 1 Swiss Road Act, against you.
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The driver must constantly have control over the vehicle in such a way that he/she can fulfill his/her duties of caution.
"Constantly" is meant quite literally. Sliding over black ice and you crashed? You should have had chains (spikes are illegal on the autobahn) or gone 0 km/h, your fault.
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  #42  
Old 26.01.2021, 17:06
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

my first thought on the subject of this thread was that you need to drink more

and if you do, keep the windows up because the new cameras can smell your breath if you speed past them.
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  #43  
Old 26.01.2021, 17:07
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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. A very small violation of speed limit on the highway (e.g. 1-5km/h over the limit) would be a rather small fine, around Fr. 40-something. Not worth ruining an otherwise perfectly good weekend.
CHF 20 on the Autobahn. Item 303.3.a on the price list https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2019/93/de

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On that bit of the A1 they are slowly replacing the Cameras with newer digital ones. I’ve heard a rumour that the tolerance has been reduced to 2 kph. Also all the fixed cameras along that stretch point in both directions, perhaps they were flashing the opposing lanes.
[...]
Also, these cameras don’t use radar they rely on sensors in the road, you can actually see them (on a clear day).
The tolerance exists to accommodate for potential measuring errors. Most often the devices are very accurate and thus the tolerance plays in your favor. Still, do not count on it unless you like to gamble. Most modern system only flash if you are above the tolerance.

The tolerance for in road sensors, and a vehicle speed from 101 up to 150 km/h, is 6 km/h (same as for radar). It is 4 km/h only in case of a laser based system. Verordnung des ASTRA zur Strassenverkehrskontrollverordnung.
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  #44  
Old 26.01.2021, 17:14
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

As technology offers more driver aids, I hope we don't have a future where the human being behind the wheel, holds the view that they can abdicate accountability for their driving to a car manufacturer, or software provider if something goes wrong.

If we're speeding, or we don't bother with winter tyres, can't see through snow etc. that's on us.

If we get behind the wheel of a car - we take responsibility for the two tonne missile we're driving.
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  #45  
Old 26.01.2021, 18:06
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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Err, 120.

If it's bone dry the limit is 120, if it's raining, snowing or even completely covered by black ice the limit is still 120.
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120 km/h or lower, all the way down to 0 km/h.
While the rest of your post is spot-on, this only serves to muddy the waters again. The speed limit defines the maximum speed allowed, so if it's posted at 120, then 120 is what it is, regardless of road conditions or anything else. It is never lower.

Yes, of course it doesn't give anyone carte blanche to ignore all the other factors, but while you might be breaking other laws by driving too fast for the conditions you will never be guilty of speeding as long as you're below said limit. In the context of the OP being flashed, and the questions arising from that, this is the only relevant point.
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  #46  
Old 26.01.2021, 18:14
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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The speed limit defines the maximum speed allowed, so if it's posted at 120, then 120 is what it is, regardless of road conditions or anything else. It is never lower.
... unless your vehicle has a specific limit per Part 1. Art. 5 of the law.
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  #47  
Old 26.01.2021, 18:36
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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While the rest of your post is spot-on, this only serves to muddy the waters again. The speed limit defines the maximum speed allowed, so if it's posted at 120, then 120 is what it is, regardless of road conditions or anything else. It is never lower.
General maximum speed limit (Allgemeine Höchstgeschwindigkeit Art. 32 Abs. 2 SVG and Art. 4a VRV)
vs. signed maximum speed limit (signalisierte Höchstgeschwindigkeit Art. 27 SVG and Art. 22 SSV)
vs. vehicle based maximum speed limit (Höchstgeschwindigkeit für einzelne Fahrzeugarten Art. 32 Abs. 2 SVG and Art. 5 VRV)
vs. adequate speed given by the road condition, traffic, and other circumstances (Angemessene Geschwindigkeit Art. 32 Abs. 1 SVG and Art. 4 VRV)

The speed cameras only flash in the first three instances. They can fine you in all four of them.

With this we can add an other possibility: The system might have thought OP was pulling a trailer, or has mistaken the vehicle for a truck or coach.

(Bonus: Art. 100 Abs. 4 SVG and Art. 16 VRV Exemption for police, ambulance, custom, and fire fighters )
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  #48  
Old 26.01.2021, 19:31
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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As technology offers more driver aids, I hope we don't have a future where the human being behind the wheel, holds the view that they can abdicate accountability for their driving to a car manufacturer, or software provider if something goes wrong.

If we're speeding, or we don't bother with winter tyres, can't see through snow etc. that's on us.

If we get behind the wheel of a car - we take responsibility for the two tonne missile we're driving.
I’m not sure at which point in the post you felt that someone is avoiding responsibility/accountability.
Someone who drives his car at precisely 120, get flashed comes to a forum of good people asking what he might be doing wrong so it doesn’t happen again, this to me sounds like acknowledging what happened and trying to understand why it happened, a camera fault, his own fault, manufacturer calibration fault etc so that it could be rectified in future.
What he gets instead is driving 101, responsibility and accountability 101 and lots of assumptions and opinions like black ice and the favorite - winter wheels that you “must”
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  #49  
Old 26.01.2021, 19:37
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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General maximum speed limit (Allgemeine Höchstgeschwindigkeit Art. 32 Abs. 2 SVG and Art. 4a VRV)
vs. signed maximum speed limit (signalisierte Höchstgeschwindigkeit Art. 27 SVG and Art. 22 SSV)
vs. vehicle based maximum speed limit (Höchstgeschwindigkeit für einzelne Fahrzeugarten Art. 32 Abs. 2 SVG and Art. 5 VRV)
vs. adequate speed given by the road condition, traffic, and other circumstances (Angemessene Geschwindigkeit Art. 32 Abs. 1 SVG and Art. 4 VRV)

The speed cameras only flash in the first three instances. They can fine you in all four of them.

With this we can add an other possibility: The system might have thought OP was pulling a trailer, or has mistaken the vehicle for a truck or coach.

(Bonus: Art. 100 Abs. 4 SVG and Art. 16 VRV Exemption for police, ambulance, custom, and fire fighters )
Thanks.
This is pretty interesting considering I had the exact same features in my previous car (a sedan) and I always used them all over Europe with not a single infraction. This one being a SUV maybe changes something on how cameras see it ?
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  #50  
Old 26.01.2021, 20:59
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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I’m not sure at which point in the post you felt that someone is avoiding responsibility/accountability.
Hallo princess - you thought my post was directed at you?

Well since you ask.

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trying to understand why it happened, a camera fault, manufacturer calibration fault etc so that it could be rectified in future."
I confirm it's definitely the fault of the car and the speed camera.

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On both classions the car was on autopilot so I’m 100% sure of the speeds and it also takes care of increasing and decreasing speeds according to speed signs so we can negate any temporary 80/100 zones as well.


PS: I’ve just had a new car for 3 months and even though it’s very very unlikely but maybe the speedometer is not well calibrated
No other outcome is plausible.

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I just want to know if there’s actually a problem with the speedometer configuration so that I can get it fixed...

Although I wonder since it’s a new car and if there’s indeed a problem would Mercedes pay my tickets
Mercedes do this for their special GLE customers.

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I agree about the latency of the autopilot but in this case there was no speed reduction happening and neither was there any temporary speed reduction sign, I was cruising at constant 120 km/h for the past 15 minutes and actually after the flash too.

actually I don’t have winter wheels, considering there’s barely any snow on motorways I thought the 4x4 would be okay...can this alter the speed ?
Good decision. Who needs winter tyres? the car's in charge here.

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It’s a Merc GLE and it has this autopilot feature which takes care of the steering inputs, reducing and increasing the speeds according to road signs and of course according to the vehicle in front.
I’ll check the Speedo through GPS next time.
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Matter of preference I guess. I prefer to let the car do it however that doesn’t mean I can’t adapt the speed myself in case if there are road signs she couldn’t/didn’t recognize.
Lovely, what's her name?

Any chance you could post a photo of you being driven by your Merc GLE so we all know to work from home and not get in the way of the digital VIP.
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  #51  
Old 26.01.2021, 21:21
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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Hallo princess - you thought my post was directed at you?

Well since you ask.


I confirm it's definitely the fault of the car and the speed camera.



No other outcome is plausible.



Mercedes do this for their special GLE customers.



Good decision. Who needs winter tyres? the car's in charge here.





Lovely, what's her name?

Any chance you could post a photo of you being driven by your Merc GLE so we all know to work from home and not get in the way of the digital VIP.
Haha I have to admit it did make me laugh. In case it helps I was coming from “la voiture” theme of things but anyway I have a feeling you felt offended by my response to which I apologize and reiterate - all I’m trying to do is understand why and how I got flashed while driving at 120, so that I can ensure it doesn’t happen again.
Any constructive feedback is welcome
Feedback that doesn’t involve educating me about winter wheels or telling me what would happen if I’d have gotten into an accident.
Thanks again
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  #52  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:07
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

Get some winter tyres first then come back and we can discuss the lower priority items like setting off speed cameras....
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  #53  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:34
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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Haha I have to admit it did make me laugh. In case it helps I was coming from “la voiture” theme of things but anyway I have a feeling you felt offended by my response to which I apologize and reiterate - all I’m trying to do is understand why and how I got flashed while driving at 120, so that I can ensure it doesn’t happen again.
Read the car manual. I'll pay you a beer for every warning in the manual about the digital nanny not working in case of snow, if the following warning is not made for traffic sign recognition.

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System limits : The system may be impaired or may not function in the following situations: If there is poor visibility, e.g. due to insufficient illumination of the road, if there are highly variable shade conditions or in rain,snow, fog or heavy spray
If the manual says the system doesn't work in snow conditions, why do you expect it to work in snow conditions? Pay attention, it doesn't say heavy snow, lots of snow, a blizzard or winter storm. It just says snow.
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  #54  
Old 27.01.2021, 10:01
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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all I’m trying to do is understand why and how I got flashed while driving at 120, so that I can ensure it doesn’t happen again.
An other possibility is that the system was setup incorrectly, set to a lower speed limit than actually applies.

The police in canton Lucerne seem to have a problem with this:
2010 : https://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/zentr...ussen-ld.22280
2015 : https://www.20min.ch/story/luzerner-...e-927766669979
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Old 27.01.2021, 10:25
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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Any constructive feedback is welcome
WINTER TYRES
I have to join the crowd here. Perhaps that so many people have brought it up means we might have a point?

Any good driver knows the difference winter tyres make.

I remember being back in the UK some years ago and driving my fathers car in snow (winter tyres are not really a known thing in the UK). It provided an instant education in how effective winter tyres are, or how ineffective summer tyres are.

OTHER FEEDBACK

Internal speedos do overestimate speed by around 10% generally, so you should be going more slowly than you think. Car manufacturers do this actively to help their drivers avoid speeding.

External satnavs like TomTom or Waze on your phone, may not do this. Therefore if it shows 122km, it might well be. And they are not as accurate as an internal speedo, so you might have been going faster.

Don't rely on internal car systems to accurately change the speed based on road signs.
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Last edited by krlock3; 27.01.2021 at 10:42. Reason: underestimate to overestimate
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Old 27.01.2021, 13:41
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

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One of the problems with these discussions is that many people will use terms such as 'should' or even 'must' to express their personal opinions about good driving practices. Winter tyres are a great divisor, not because there are many people who don't think they're a good idea, but that we get a whole raft of posts saying that you "must" have them - oh look, there's another one just before this post.

Just as an aside, the English expression "are a must" or "is a must" is usually related to a strong recommendation based upon personal experience and is different to "must" as in "you must have" but I wouldn't expect many people on this forum to understand that difference nor indeed do I know what the intended meaning of the original comment was.

Last edited by Landers; 27.01.2021 at 15:12.
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  #57  
Old 27.01.2021, 14:00
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

We have four cars:

One is on summer tires year round
One is on winter tires year round
One is on snow-rated all season tires year round
One is on summer/winter tires depending, I usually change to summer in June, and winter in November.

I don't use summer tires if snow.

Tom
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Old 27.01.2021, 14:11
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

We have 19 cars.

Five have winter tyres from November and summers from late April.
Two of those Five don't get used every year in winter so don't always have them fitted.
The rest have summer or competition tyres all year but would never be driven in very cold (<5) or wet conditions. The other day it was 9 celcius and dry here so one got used on summers.
None have tyres more than 5 years old.
One has 36 different wheels to ensure a suitable tyre is available for all conditions, although none of those 36 are actually winter tyres.
The shortest I've ever driven on a brand new set of tyres and then disposed of and changed them due to wear alone is 11km. (11, not 11'000)

All seasons are the spawn of the devil. Even my Sprinter van has both winters and summers (I forgot that in the list above...)
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Old 27.01.2021, 14:18
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

All season tires worked well for me in snow conditions worse than the snow you get in Switzerland.
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Old 27.01.2021, 14:28
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Re: Flashed under the limit, twice in 2 weeks

that's just the problem. what exactly does 'worked well for me' mean?

does it mean your stopping distance was equal or better to the manufacturer's tested value?

does it mean the years of hard work and effort put in by the designers to ensure you have good feedback and feeling of the outside front wheel through the wheel when cornering was not diminished?

does it mean you could get on the power exiting a curve as early as possible?

does it mean the NHV was as good as summer or winter specific tyres?

does it mean you could drive the car on the limit and still maintain absolute control? or, oh, you never tried that, right?

GOD, NOT ANOTHER WINTER TYRE THREAD. HOLD ME BACK!

its literally the ONLY thing under your control (at least in switzerland) to ensure you get the best out of your car as the manufacturer intended.

I was skiing on saturday and some idiot blocked the road as he couldn't get his 1 wheel drive car to grip. that was after having held up a line of traffic for the last 10 minutes. when he eventually reached the top I noticed he had nearly bald, rock hard summer tyres on (and a kid in the back). idiot.
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