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  #41  
Old 28.01.2021, 12:00
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Deceptively bad lighting? Who was trying to deceive you?
Obviously OP expected the conditions at the other end of the tunnel to be different to the start.

Except this isn't Gotthard (and the fine for cycling through that would have been rather higher I suspect).
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  #42  
Old 28.01.2021, 12:25
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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That is was one clear hint that road might not have been fully open.

I just checked some videos. The barrier warning sign before the tunnel is turned away if the road is fully open.
https://youtu.be/qdfXvmCF_hQ?t=1125

If the road was not fully opened, I have little doubt, that my fine would be larger. Even if it was just "bis zum Passhohe", I would still be on a closed road. And if the road was opened, than the lack of signalization was quite clear. Can an opened road have a barrier, blocking it through the whole width? If anything, this is highly annoying for a driver who comes all the way from wherever Glarus and has to turn around after a good hour of drive.



Also, I cycled among many high alpine passes, and the conditions are rarely "glanz". On Swiss' passes, the minimum is slippery ground due to cow feces.
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Old 28.01.2021, 12:25
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

Crikey, daughter#2 totalled her car, sliding of the road and then over 30 meters steep downhill through a thicket hedge/forest, due to black ice on a steep and curvy road.

She was way under the speed limit, nobody but a few shrubs got hurt and she called the police immediately after the car stood still at last at the bottom of the hill.....

This honesty ensued.... court, fine, admin cost, 1 month driving ban, 1 year extension of her new drivers permit, cost of recovering car, deductible of the liabilty insurance,buying a new car etc and overall came to over 10'000.-

Because of the entry in our traffic law of 'nicht beherrschen des Fahrzeugs', which ...your fault or not, comes into play in such cases and rightfully so.

I am 100% in agreement with curley's statements!!!

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OP wrote <<All that for me being found guilty of overseeing the barrier sign at the entrance of the tunnel. The sign, which is there 24/7, no matter if the barrier is actually blocking the road or not.>>


There is a clear indication of a possible barrier (as OP knows it's there all year round, it is also clearly visible ). This is like the all year signs re possible traffic jam. Just because all the times one passed there before and the road was clear you can't hit standing traffic and claim you're not at fault or worse you've not been warned. In fact you have to expect obstacles on the road at any time so being warned about the specific possibility is actually rather luxurious.


@OP, pay the fine, take it as a lesson in life to be more observant in future, LEARN FROM IT! and be glad that neither you nor anybody else got seriously hurt!!

Last edited by EastEnders; 28.01.2021 at 13:29. Reason: Fixing quote
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  #44  
Old 28.01.2021, 12:35
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

Police in Zürich does it when they get a free moment.

But having same or very similar traffic rules/fines for cars and bikes is another strange concept. The difference in weight between a cyclist and an average car is a factor of 20, not even taking speed into consideration.

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Finally someone on a bicycle getting fined for violating traffic laws
More of that in Zurich please!
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  #45  
Old 28.01.2021, 12:42
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Police in Zürich does it when they get a free moment.

But having same or very similar traffic rules/fines for cars and bikes is another strange concepts. The difference in weight between a cyclist and an average car is a factor of 20, not even taking speed into consideration.
Having the same rules absolutely makes sense, otherwise how could you share the same roads? There are some differences, same as there are for different types of motor vehicles, but on the basics we all have to behave the same way.
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  #46  
Old 28.01.2021, 13:02
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

Sure, rules are needed because in many cases bicycles and cars share the roads. But simply taking rules made for heavy and fast motor vehicles and blindly applying them to bicycles (especially in a densely populated city) makes no sense (unless one wants to squeeze out cycling and favour driving). Aircrafts at the airport are not using car traffic rules either.

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Having the same rules absolutely makes sense, otherwise how could you share the same roads? There are some differences, same as there are for different types of motor vehicles, but on the basics we all have to behave the same way.
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Old 28.01.2021, 13:03
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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If the road was not fully opened, I have little doubt, that my fine would be larger. Even if it was just "bis zum Passhohe", I would still be on a closed road. And if the road was opened, than the lack of signalization was quite clear. Can an opened road have a barrier, blocking it through the whole width? If anything, this is highly annoying for a driver who comes all the way from wherever Glarus and has to turn around after a good hour of drive.
YES, roads can have barriers. Near my place there's a shooting ground with nice white barriers blocking the roads. Other shooting grounds are the same. One day riding my bike in Jura, i pedaled up to a pass, came down the other side only to find a barrier closing the road because Swiss army training grounds. I had to pedal up the pass I just descended

Today with the flood and avalanche risk, a lot of people will be surprised by the amount of barriers blocking roads too. Usually, the risk that matters is behind the barrier, not the barrier itself.
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  #48  
Old 28.01.2021, 13:18
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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So why don't maintanence workers just park their car on a highway/canthonal road/wherever, and start their work. There is a sign for construction work somewhere along the way. Maybe. The will be no danger, right? It is reasonable, because it takes an unreasonable driver to hit someone.



Sorry, but in your simplistic description you forgot to mention a tunnel, a deceptively bad lightning (I could have seen anythining after the exit of a tunnel) and the fact, that the barrier was primarily meant to stop the vehicles coming from the other side, and its position and signaling was adjusted for this. I wasn't just riding my bike completely unaware of the surroundings you know. I had to be quite careful with the slippery road and the obstacles (rocks, etc.) on it, yet is still wasn't enough. Surely I could have gone slower and surely I could have thought of the possibility of a barrier on a way. But usually the road signilisation is provided in a way, that it really makes 100% clear to anybody of any possible danger. Here, this most certainly was not the case.
It's getting better and better. Would suggest not to mention this on your appeal but please do come back to tell us how the appeal went, perfect story for a popcorn bowl.

I find there is a point in life when not one single person has agreed with you that bears stopping, pausing and reflecting if one might be wrong. But perhaps that's just me.
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  #49  
Old 28.01.2021, 13:31
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

BTW, having a bright light on a bike and using it when going through tunnels helps a lot with such barriers (also in daylight). Road barriers usually have reflecting marks, and if not then those installing them might have a problem in case of an accident.

Last edited by awanderer; 28.01.2021 at 14:14.
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  #50  
Old 28.01.2021, 14:20
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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It's getting better and better. Would suggest not to mention this on your appeal but please do come back to tell us how the appeal went, perfect story for a popcorn bowl.

I find there is a point in life when not one single person has agreed with you that bears stopping, pausing and reflecting if one might be wrong. But perhaps that's just me.

At the end, my accident was just a cool story. It did not end in the Altdorf hospital, where I stayed for two days on observation. When I was released, I probably broke some more of your precious rules, or at least guidelines, mounted my not-perfect bike, put on my wet clothes and painful expression on my scared face, used my hard hit legs and arms, and cycled my frozen a$s back to Glarus, where my car was. I went through Pragelpass to make it more diverse, however it was definitely not a joyride. The alternative would have been god knows how many CHF and god knows how many hours for the transport, and if something happened, a regel-recht majority would again tell me what I did wrong. However, at a point, where bureaucracy meets despair, you don't care anymore. Anyone with some real-life experiences knows it is like that.



But, in the case if I wasn't so lucky, the whole thing would have yielded to another result. If everyone thinks (generally I didn't get such impression from replies), that some small sign by the bushes is sufficient to signal a complete closure of an otherwise opened road 100m afterwards, then yes, I will definitely think about it. But a different outcome might have triggered different approach in system trying to find The villain. Maybe myself or my relatives would also tried harder. But since I was satisfied with how things turned out and just wanted to get the whole experience behind me, I didn't point fingers to anyone else. Big mistake, since I was the only one left to blame. Lesson learned.
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  #51  
Old 28.01.2021, 14:48
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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When I was released, I probably broke some more of your precious rules, or at least guidelines, mounted my not-perfect bike, put on my wet clothes and painful expression on my scared face, used my hard hit legs and arms, and cycled my frozen a$s back to Glarus, where my car was. I went through Pragelpass to make it more diverse, however it was definitely not a joyride.
Hey, you should have a lawyer friend.

I'm not a lawyer but I can tell you this is the kind of things you don't say in public, ever. It's hard to see someone being already in a hole and keep digging. Two days in the hospital means a serious crash. Quite probably the helmet was broken or at least fractured. Not a crazy assumption that some bike components were also compromised, like the handlebars or even the frame. I know that telling this story in my home country would generate sympathy, the system is against you, you earned martyrdom points by riding your bike back to your car in pain. But things are different here, riding a bike after a crash like that is perceived like irresponsible. If the handlebars fractured, you might have crashed again. I'm not judging about which culture is better, just mentioning how actions are perceived differently.
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  #52  
Old 28.01.2021, 15:28
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Hey, you should have a lawyer friend.

I'm not a lawyer but I can tell you this is the kind of things you don't say in public, ever. It's hard to see someone being already in a hole and keep digging. Two days in the hospital means a serious crash. Quite probably the helmet was broken or at least fractured. Not a crazy assumption that some bike components were also compromised, like the handlebars or even the frame. I know that telling this story in my home country would generate sympathy, the system is against you, you earned martyrdom points by riding your bike back to your car in pain. But things are different here, riding a bike after a crash like that is perceived like irresponsible. If the handlebars fractured, you might have crashed again. I'm not judging about which culture is better, just mentioning how actions are perceived differently.

Ironically, my gear was all fine and I took most of the primary and secondary hits. I know of no law that prohibits somebody from going from a hospital by bike. I also know no law that prohibits somebody, who has been in the hospital in the past day, but was examined fine on all levels, to move freely around the country afterwards. But I'm now a lawyer, so who knows. I feel pretty safe, though (expecting more people to warn me of the consequences... )



But your warning is a good indication of how Swiss culture works. And I'm not judging, I'm just not used to this. Which also lead to me opening this thread.
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  #53  
Old 28.01.2021, 15:41
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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The alternative would have been god knows how many CHF and god knows how many hours for the transport, and if something happened, a regel-recht majority would again tell me what I did wrong.
Guesstimate? Less than 3 hours and less than 80 Francs.
sbb.ch says 3h, CHF 41 for you (no 1/2-tax, 2nd class), CHF 72 in first class, no 1/2-tax, and CHF 14 for the bike.

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But, in the case if I wasn't so lucky, the whole thing would have yielded to another result. If everyone thinks (generally I didn't get such impression from replies), that some small sign by the bushes is sufficient to signal a complete closure of an otherwise opened road 100m afterwards, then yes, I will definitely think about it.
If nobody challenges the decision or questions the signage it is how it is. I do not know if it is "perfect" and how it was done is how it should be done. Maybe it is. Maybe it is not. For example the signage is on the left side which should only done if a sign cannot be mounted on the right hand side. May be this is such a situation may it isn't.

Just one question: Why was the police involved in this whole situation?
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  #54  
Old 28.01.2021, 16:53
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Guesstimate? Less than 3 hours and less than 80 Francs.
sbb.ch says 3h, CHF 41 for you (no 1/2-tax, 2nd class), CHF 72 in first class, no 1/2-tax, and CHF 14 for the bike.

Just one question: Why was the police involved in this whole situation?



So not much of a time save. Plus I'd have to pay additional fine for polluting the wagon My clothes were wet and muddy, and at the time it seemed to better just hop on my bike, warm up and grind my teeth, that to freeze on a public transport.

But to be honest, I would most likely, or definitely take such deal, since I really just wanted to get home asap. When I checked, everything was in the 5+ hour range, and the personnel at the hospital also seemed quite pesimistic about me getting to the other side anytime soon, so maybe I didn't put enough effort or didn't know where to look.


From what I understand, and from what the others here have explained, the police is involved in any traffic accident. Since I had to visit a hospital, they were called after it was found to be an accident.
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Old 28.01.2021, 17:37
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

how did you get to the hospital? maybe next time do it in a way that doesn't involve the police and save yourself some $$$.
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Old 28.01.2021, 17:56
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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A good reminder was already the crash itself... But safe is not a discrete concept. It could be 50% safe, 90% safe, 99% safe, 99.9% safe, never 100% safe, so which safe is safe enough and what is the best ratio between safe and practical?
Given the safety percentage (as, probability of not crashing) your trip costs on average:
760 CHF * (1 - SAFETY / 100)

99% safe bike ride will cost you 7.6 francs, 99.9% - 76 rappen. You are free to decide the ratio between this and being practical

It's a joke example, but the overall idea is: you can't be 100% safe, you decide your safeness level based on the tolerated probability of unsafe event (in terms of money, health, liability, etc.). When an unsafe event happens - you can't complain, you chose the probability
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Old 28.01.2021, 17:59
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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how did you get to the hospital? maybe next time do it in a way that doesn't involve the police and save yourself some $$$.

Sadly I required some assistance due to brain concussion and severe pain in the hit body parts (legs and arms). I was unable to ride my bike at the time due to dizzines and pain, so I had to be driven to a hospital. Some friendly people, who came by car from Altdorf side, helped me in many ways and I could only thank them for their assistance even if that meant extra costs at the end.
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Old 28.01.2021, 19:32
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

Quite a story! I’m glad to hear you’re fully recovered.

In primary school, when you do something silly or wrong you have to sit on the naughty step.
In secondary school you get a detention, or perhaps suspended
In university you get kicked out
In Switzerland you get a fine – or worse.

Chalk it up to experience. The fine has served it’s purpose because you will never do this again. You’ve learned the lesson – and you’ve reminded all EF members of the costs of cycling into things.
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Old 28.01.2021, 19:37
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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YES, roads can have barriers. Near my place there's a shooting ground with nice white barriers blocking the roads. Other shooting grounds are the same. One day riding my bike in Jura, i pedaled up to a pass, came down the other side only to find a barrier closing the road because Swiss army training grounds. I had to pedal up the pass I just descended
It's worse when you come to the barrier and the safe side is the other side of it.

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But, in the case if I wasn't so lucky
Everytime you venture out on the streets on a bike or in a car, your risk hitting or being hit by someone and them or you being injured or killed. It's a risk. When it doesn't pay off, don't whine about it. As you say - it's just (bad) luck.
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Old 28.01.2021, 19:50
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

My friends and I have a saying (we are motorcyclists) : if you have an accident, it is always your OWN fault!

Tom
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