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Old 28.01.2021, 22:47
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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My friends and I have a saying (we are motorcyclists) : if you have an accident, it is always your OWN fault!

Tom
I'm surprised you'd say that. Sure, cyclists and motorcyclists are often to blame for their own accidents. But many accidents are also caused by car/truck/bus drivers only looking for other large vehicles and not even thinking to look for someone on a bike.
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  #62  
Old 28.01.2021, 22:50
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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I'm surprised you'd say that. Sure, cyclists and motorcyclists are often to blame for their own accidents. But many accidents are also caused by car/truck/bus drivers only looking for other large vehicles and not even thinking to look for someone on a bike.
We take the view that all accidents can be avoided, and we aren't exactly snails when we ride.

It keeps us aware.

Tom
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  #63  
Old 28.01.2021, 23:42
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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I wonder what benefits come from investigating such cases where no other party is involved. A guy lying in the hospital and a broken bike. Geez, why not call forensics team and bump the cost up a magnitude of order higher. The total price to pay then comes down not to the severity of the issue, but to the complexity of the issue. Which has no logic at all.
I had a bad accident after a farmer walked across mixed-use foot+cycling page with cows to another field for grazing. I needed medical attention and it went through the accident insurance. For some reason, my doctor decided to say I had ptsd from the accident, which i thought was a way to get more money from the insurance. Now I'm wondering if she did that to avoid my being charged. A bunch of cows distracted me and my bike slipped on cow dung, no ptsd involved.

How would they have investigated this? Would they have called the farmer and asked them about me?
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  #64  
Old 29.01.2021, 01:51
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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I wonder what benefits come from investigating such cases where no other party is involved. A guy lying in the hospital and a broken bike. Geez, why not call forensics team and bump the cost up a magnitude of order higher. The total price to pay then comes down not to the severity of the issue, but to the complexity of the issue. Which has no logic at all.
You damaged 3rd party property, Cantonal property to be specific. By law you should have informed the police asap.

You were in need of medical help, so were Ok to leave the accident scene to get medical treatment, perhaps you were in shock. Still, you were obliged to inform the police about the 3rd party damage and should have done so at least when your head was clear again. It seems you didn't, hence the need for an investigation.

For some reason the prosecution appears to have decided to not prosecute you for the hit-and-run, perhaps because your physical damage was already severe enough compared to the damage you caused, a road barrier can't cost that much and the prosecution probably has far more important stuff to do in the first place.

Still, it seems you could have been slapped quite a bit harder. If you go to court this may be considered once again, and the judge may see things differently. Just saying.
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  #65  
Old 29.01.2021, 11:11
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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You damaged 3rd party property, Cantonal property to be specific. By law you should have informed the police asap.

You were in need of medical help, so were Ok to leave the accident scene to get medical treatment, perhaps you were in shock. Still, you were obliged to inform the police about the 3rd party damage and should have done so at least when your head was clear again. It seems you didn't, hence the need for an investigation.

For some reason the prosecution appears to have decided to not prosecute you for the hit-and-run, perhaps because your physical damage was already severe enough compared to the damage you caused, a road barrier can't cost that much and the prosecution probably has far more important stuff to do in the first place.

Still, it seems you could have been slapped quite a bit harder. If you go to court this may be considered once again, and the judge may see things differently. Just saying.

Hit and run? Sorry, but I'm sure my situation didn't involve any running, I was there, on the crime scene, for quite some time until the ambulance came while some other guy helped me. And the damage to the barrier was minimal. I didn't look and honestly didn't care at the moment.



Out of 100 people who would be put on top of Klausenpass that day, I'm sure at least 50 would end up vibrating on that thing, and other 50 would probably be as lucky to stop in front of the tunnel to make a picture of a sunny day, which was in the making.. All of the 50 injured would have been found guilty for careless driving or whatever stupid thing the law dictates. But in case of such hipothetic statistics, isn't there some other problem?


I actually don't care about the price tag itself. I will probably just buy less junk and reduce my carbon footprint or whatever. What I really care is the whole verdict against me, while I'm very sure that putting the barrier on that road was not safe and probably not by the book. I know what I did wrong. A human error, that can happen to just anybody - believe it or not. And I feel bad about it. But should someone else feel bad about it? I would definetly feel bad, if I knew me opening the road from one side, leaving no additional warnings by opened barrier on Glarus side, on the top of the pass, etc. would lead to some poor schmuck ended up splashed on that piece of metal.
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  #66  
Old 29.01.2021, 22:47
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Hit and run? Sorry, but I'm sure my situation didn't involve any running, I was there, on the crime scene, for quite some time until the ambulance came while some other guy helped me. And the damage to the barrier was minimal. I didn't look and honestly didn't care at the moment.
Understandable. Doesn't change my point though, nor the risk you'd face if you challenged the whole thing.
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Old 29.01.2021, 22:55
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

In the end, only CHF 150 are the fine, the rests are costs.

Please stop exaggerating!

Tom
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  #68  
Old 29.01.2021, 23:42
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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In the end, only CHF 150 are the fine, the rests are costs.

Please stop exaggerating!

Tom

Well, in the end the distribution of the costs is irrelevant for me But yeah, I see your point. Maybe I'm taking it too personal. Although everything eventually turned out fine, the whole experience took me through a lot of pain, bureucracy and logistics problems. And the memory of suddenly seeing the barrier, while knowing it is too late and it is not going to end well, still scares me. I honestly believe it was a series of really unfortunate events. Giving me a fine, where the whole thing is simplified to a generic conclusion, maybe put me over the edge.



I believe that most of the things, that could be said, were said, therefore I thank everybody for your input. It was helpful.
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  #69  
Old 29.01.2021, 23:59
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Sure, rules are needed because in many cases bicycles and cars share the roads. But simply taking rules made for heavy and fast motor vehicles and blindly applying them to bicycles (especially in a densely populated city) makes no sense (unless one wants to squeeze out cycling and favour driving). Aircrafts at the airport are not using car traffic rules either.
While I get your point in theory, things are always complicated in practice. To be fair, right turns at selected and clearly labelled red lights have recently been made possible for cyclists: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/i...n-bei-rot.html

There is one largely invisible area where the rules are slightly different: an unfortunate person left with a neurological impairment bad enough to keep them from driving a car may still be allowed to ride a bike, if the neurological impairment is just below the threshold required for driving a motor vehicle. These things are not for practicing physicians to decide, but for a special branch of forensics. It goes without saying that any impairment of judgment (which in itself can be part of neurological damage) will mean they‘ll keep the affected person off the road.
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Old 30.01.2021, 00:41
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

That's exactly the point - if I want to stop at a traffic lights every 100m and breath some exhaust fumes, I will rather drive and not cycle. Insistence on using same standards for bicycles and cars is one thing, infrastructure and road planning is another. I have 30+ experience in cycling, do it daily and I am good at it (no accidents, etc) but, e. g. cycling in Zürich is way too dangerous in many places (and I actually make an extra effort to ride carefully). Bike lanes that suddenly end in nothing, cars passing you 10cm away, sharing narrow tunnels with huge lorries, train tracks crossings, bike lanes in the center of busy streets and intersections, etc, etc. Clearly, planners have their own, special idea of what safe cycling routes are. Those that we have in Zürich are far from safe.

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While I get your point in theory, things are always complicated in practice. To be fair, right turns at selected and clearly labelled red lights have recently been made possible for cyclists: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/i...n-bei-rot.html

There is one largely invisible area where the rules are slightly different: an unfortunate person left with a neurological impairment bad enough to keep them from driving a car may still be allowed to ride a bike, if the neurological impairment is just below the threshold required for driving a motor vehicle. These things are not for practicing physicians to decide, but for a special branch of forensics. It goes without saying that any impairment of judgment (which in itself can be part of neurological damage) will mean they‘ll keep the affected person off the road.
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  #71  
Old 30.01.2021, 00:52
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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e. g. cycling in Zürich is way too dangerous in many places (and I actually make an extra effort to ride carefully). Bike lanes that suddenly end in nothing, cars passing you 10cm away, sharing narrow tunnels with huge lorries, train tracks crossings, bike lanes in the center of busy streets and intersections, etc, etc. Clearly, planners have their own, special idea of what safe cycling routes are. Those that we have in Zürich are far from safe.
Thank the red-green politic in the City of Zurich of the last 25 years which happily used the cyclist as an obstacle against car traffic. A situation which helped absolutely no one.
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Old 30.01.2021, 17:53
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Thank the red-green politic in the City of Zurich of the last 25 years which happily used the cyclist as an obstacle against car traffic. A situation which helped absolutely no one.
I think Bern has taken this approach too. Last time I drove to town, one of the one-way roads had been redone. Instead of two car lanes with a bike lane on the right, there was one car lane in the middle and a bicycle lane on either side of the car lane.

BUT - the bike lane to my right was for cyclists traveling in the same direction as me. The bike lane to my left was for cyclists traveling against the flow of car traffic. What madness is that??
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Old 31.01.2021, 00:12
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

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Thank the red-green politic in the City of Zurich of the last 25 years which happily used the cyclist as an obstacle against car traffic. A situation which helped absolutely no one.
Weird, isn‘t it? Though rumour has it that Wolff was simply too deferential to Leutenegger for years. Still, having voted for Wolff, I felt cheated. The truly abysmal cycling infrastructure in Zurich used not to bother patient old me a lot before our offspring started riding a bike here too. Ever since, I‘ve had several sets of competing problems: mainly fear for the kid‘s life, literally. But also a slowly burning anger - at governments and urban planners who deter anyone but the very impetuous and the very relaxed from riding here, but also at the most impetuous riders, who give kids a bad example by zipping past senior citizens on sidewalks without due warning or safe distance (where, admittedly, the unique and questionable wisdom of Zurich‘s planners has often seen fit to place bike lanes, expletive deleted).

In the meantime, I groan inwardly at cyclists who seem unwilling to shoulder their part of the shared responsibility to keep traffic sane, and I admit that happened to me once again with OP‘s question here. Sorry for digressing. It‘s just that I notice a strong streak of animosity towards cyclists, particularly in Zurich. In bleak moments, I get where that comes from - but it‘s important to remember that not everyone on a bike is a brash young man. From a public health perspective, safe bike lanes are one of the best investments a community can make. For those willing to digress further, here’s an old favourite: https://www.bmj.com/content/331/7531/1545
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Old 31.01.2021, 00:53
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

it's a very Swiss thing, to penalise a "Selbstunfall", but in the end anyone who crashes for seemingly no reason is liable. I was told many years ago when I had an accident due to black ice that they might come knocking on my door. Thankfully the recovery guy who picked my car up had to pass six other crashes on the way to his garage.

It's an admin fee. It is likely covered by your car, legal or other insurance.
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Old 31.01.2021, 11:05
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Re: Ridiculous fine of 760 CHF for a bike crash

You were Switzerlanded. Congratulations.

The fine money will be used to fund improvements to cycle lane infrastructure. In our dreams.
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