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  #121  
Old 18.06.2021, 19:51
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

Wow this must be the first case when you are at fault when rear ended - even more stopping for a red light.

And my person guess? Because you have Russian Federation license plates and the person behind you playing on his mobile phone has Aargau plates.

I would say lawyer up but unfortunately for you in front of the Swiss judicial system there are Swiss and everybody else. I think it will be hard to find a judge that will go against the police decision, they don't like to do that, especially not for some foreigner, even less for a easterner. But I agree you need to contest the decision

Your best bet is to find a friendly newspaper to run your story. Your wife stops at a red light and another distracted person rams her from behind without braking and your wife is at fault. Doesn't matter if it was short or long yellow or pink, it's a junction, light is turning red everybody needs to be aware of traffic in front of them

This is a classic open and shut case for the Swiss police when one party is a foreigner and the other one is Swiss
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  #122  
Old 19.06.2021, 01:02
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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There‘s no such thing as „a very short yellow“. They are the same throughout the county. It would be total chaos otherwise…
Nah. A crossing that's 50m across needs significantly more yellow time than one that's only 20 m. And that's not even considering slow and fast vehicles/people.

I seem to remember that the yellow phase needs to be in the 4-7secs range. Shorter leaves insufficient time to react and stop, and longer is increasingly interpreted as a challenge to get across before red, with all the fairly obvious negative consequences like speeding to get across in time, and actually causing acidents by the unfortunate who lose the challenge.
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  #123  
Old 22.06.2021, 08:24
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

The other driver has claimed our car "inexplicably" braked hard and stopped in the middle of junction, passing the light just as it become amber ... leaving her with no time to react.

The police corroborated that, by inferring in their report summary that since the "bulk of the debris" (a bumper apron, a license plate and oil spill) were 17m inside the junction, this is where the impact must have actually happened.
No mention of the other scattered debris... In fact, that's where the vehicles eventually came to a stop and separated, having rolled together after impact at the traffic light.

Looks like we'll have a legal uphill challenge ... and dashcams for the future. Lesson learned.
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  #124  
Old 22.06.2021, 09:31
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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The other driver has claimed our car "inexplicably" braked hard and stopped in the middle of junction, passing the light just as it become amber ... leaving her with no time to react.

The police corroborated that, by inferring in their report summary that since the "bulk of the debris" (a bumper apron, a license plate and oil spill) were 17m inside the junction, this is where the impact must have actually happened.
No mention of the other scattered debris... In fact, that's where the vehicles eventually came to a stop and separated, having rolled together after impact at the traffic light.

Looks like we'll have a legal uphill challenge ... and dashcams for the future. Lesson learned.
No skid marks?
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  #125  
Old 22.06.2021, 10:55
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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No skid marks?
Skid marks may happen or not. Tire compounds are improving all the time, ABS systems too. So, you can brake hard and nothing is left on the floor.

Last Saturday I was surprised when someone misjudged my speed on a wide roundabout and decided to enter the roundabout in front of me. I slammed the brake pedal and went from ~50 km/h to zero in a few meters. I just listened to the ABS and rubber doing their job, nothing else.
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  #126  
Old 22.06.2021, 10:57
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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Wow this must be the first case when you are at fault when rear ended - even more stopping for a red light.

And my person guess? Because you have Russian Federation license plates and the person behind you playing on his mobile phone has Aargau plates.

I would say lawyer up but unfortunately for you in front of the Swiss judicial system there are Swiss and everybody else. I think it will be hard to find a judge that will go against the police decision, they don't like to do that, especially not for some foreigner, even less for a easterner. But I agree you need to contest the decision

Your best bet is to find a friendly newspaper to run your story. Your wife stops at a red light and another distracted person rams her from behind without braking and your wife is at fault. Doesn't matter if it was short or long yellow or pink, it's a junction, light is turning red everybody needs to be aware of traffic in front of them

This is a classic open and shut case for the Swiss police when one party is a foreigner and the other one is Swiss
Says the expert driver who's not prepared to deal with being blocked on the highway

Sincerely yours,

The guy with 6 figures AG plates.
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  #127  
Old 22.06.2021, 11:03
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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The other driver has claimed our car "inexplicably" braked hard and stopped in the middle of junction, passing the light just as it become amber ... leaving her with no time to react.

The police corroborated that, by inferring in their report summary that since the "bulk of the debris" (a bumper apron, a license plate and oil spill) were 17m inside the junction, this is where the impact must have actually happened.
No mention of the other scattered debris... In fact, that's where the vehicles eventually came to a stop and separated, having rolled together after impact at the traffic light.

Looks like we'll have a legal uphill challenge ... and dashcams for the future. Lesson learned.
Do you have photos of the crash site?
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  #128  
Old 22.06.2021, 11:08
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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Says the expert driver who's not prepared to deal with being blocked on the highway

Sincerely yours,

The guy with 6 figures AG plates.
six-figure AG plates? How very plebbish 4 digits are far easier to remember

17m inside the junction (beyond the halt line) would suggest a lack of observation for the lead car on the amber plus a late reaction to stop which threw the following driver....into the back of the lead car.
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  #129  
Old 22.06.2021, 12:38
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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The other driver has claimed our car "inexplicably" braked hard and stopped in the middle of junction, passing the light just as it become amber ... leaving her with no time to react.

The police corroborated that, by inferring in their report summary that since the "bulk of the debris" (a bumper apron, a license plate and oil spill) were 17m inside the junction, this is where the impact must have actually happened.
No mention of the other scattered debris... In fact, that's where the vehicles eventually came to a stop and separated, having rolled together after impact at the traffic light.
I still don't really see how any of this, i.e. whether in the junction or not, entitle someone to drive into you. In the UK, in the highway code, there is/was a statement "people sometimes make mistakes - you should drive in a way that would avoid an accident should a mistake take place". We used this to successfully win a claim against a driver who drove into the back of a friend of mine after she inexplicably put the brakes on.
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  #130  
Old 22.06.2021, 13:03
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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Skid marks may happen or not. Tire compounds are improving all the time, ABS systems too. So, you can brake hard and nothing is left on the floor.

Last Saturday I was surprised when someone misjudged my speed on a wide roundabout and decided to enter the roundabout in front of me. I slammed the brake pedal and went from ~50 km/h to zero in a few meters. I just listened to the ABS and rubber doing their job, nothing else.
If a car has just stopped at a red light, the driver will have the foot fully pressed on the brake pedal. Then if rear ended enough to get pushed into the middle of the intersection, there will be skid marks.
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  #131  
Old 22.06.2021, 13:23
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

I can't get over 3.5 hours for the interview!!! Do the police have nothing else to do??
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  #132  
Old 22.06.2021, 13:23
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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If a car has just stopped at a red light, the driver will have the foot fully pressed on the brake pedal. Then if rear ended enough to get pushed into the middle of the intersection, there will be skid marks.
Of course.

But if we go to post #1, the rear-ended car was still moving.

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My wife's car has been rear ended while coming to a stop at a traffic light, in the 60km/h zone coming off the autobahn
I guess the lesson to everyone is to complaining about excruciating pain after the accident. Tell the police one is not OK to talk, get some legal advice and then talk to the police.
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  #133  
Old 22.06.2021, 13:39
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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The police corroborated that, by inferring in their report summary that since the "bulk of the debris" (a bumper apron, a license plate and oil spill) were 17m inside the junction, this is where the impact must have actually happened.
No mention of the other scattered debris... In fact, that's where the vehicles eventually came to a stop and separated, having rolled together after impact at the traffic light.
A 50cm fall takes 0.3s on Earth.
Let's say car A at 60 km/h collides with a stationary car B of the same weight inelastically. They would continue at most at 30km/h (some energy of car A goes into inelastic deformation).

Therefore, big debris falling from 50cm height for 0.3s would fly horizontally about 2.5m before hitting the ground at 30km/h.

The big question: would the debris like a bumper apron slide for the next 14.5m?

If the radiator burst and the coolant sprang from it (and not just slowly dripped) or the engine oil bursted out - then the spots would be even a better way to determine where the collision occurred.
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  #134  
Old 22.06.2021, 13:52
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

No skid marks visible on the photos - my wife braked decisively, as she had full confidence of being able to safely come to a stop ahead of the mark. There was certainly no full-on emergency brake. As her car was about to stop, my wife observed the driver having a panicked look in rear view mirror, coming full-on without appearing to brake. She believes the driver was engaged in a phone conversation and distracted ... The impact happened right before the mark, and the two vehicles rolled "fused" together into the junction. I think instinctively, people can stop braking when bracing for impact, then the cars rolled and not skid. My wife eventually stopped by pulling the handbrake.

Our car was somehow "impaled" by some central structure of the trailing vehicle, as most of the damage was central. The headlights and our stop lights did not even shatter, but the carrying structure buckled.

The other driver declared she had just turned off the cruise control and was coasting, but was caught off-guard and only able to slightly apply the brakes.

Without camera footage, it's not easy to take this forward. Only the police took pictures, they show the road and damaged cars to the side curb and not much else.
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  #135  
Old 22.06.2021, 14:15
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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She believes the driver was engaged in a phone conversation and distracted ...
Believes or speculates? Anyway from the way you describe it sounds like an open and shut case. Things don't tend to fall off until the cars are separated unless they fly off and the oil doesn't usually fall out immediately.

Good luck!
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  #136  
Old 22.06.2021, 19:18
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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If a car has just stopped at a red light, the driver will have the foot fully pressed on the brake pedal.
A considerate driver will remove most pressure on the brake pedal before coming to a full stop. Like, during the last second or less. So, there will be only little pressure on the brake when the car comes to a full stop.

Those who don't do that will see their passengers nod their heads every time. In my experience nobody does that, otherwise the passengers will advise for the better.
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  #137  
Old 22.06.2021, 19:21
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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A considerate driver will remove most pressure on the brake pedal before coming to a full stop. Like, during the last second or less. So, there will be only little pressure on the brake when the car comes to a full stop.

Those who don't do that will see their passengers nod their heads every time. In my experience nobody does that, otherwise the passengers will advise for the better.
I suspect you are supposed to apply a hand brake or select park when waiting at traffic lights or you were when I took my driving test in London in 1989.
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  #138  
Old 22.06.2021, 19:26
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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I suspect you are supposed to apply a hand brake or select park when waiting at traffic lights or you were when I took my driving test in London in 1989.
At that time I was taught that the handbrake is basically not used when driving except to facilitate a hill start. If you are stopped on a road your foot should be on the brake so your brake lights are on and telling people behind you that you are stopping/stopped.

On a modern automatic with stop-start the handbrake is pretty much optional, which is just as well with the annoying slow electric ones.
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  #139  
Old 22.06.2021, 19:28
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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On a modern automatic with stop-start the handbrake is pretty much optional, which is just as well with the annoying slow electric ones.
I hate hill start assist.
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Old 22.06.2021, 19:30
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Re: Rear-End Accident - Fault Attribution

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I suspect you are supposed to apply a hand brake or select park when waiting at traffic lights or you were when I took my driving test in London in 1989.
I didn't say there's no pressure at all on the brake. And nothing keeps you from increasing it again while stopped.

Do give it a try
I bet you'll find it difficult, initially, to keep from releasing pressure, that's how ingrained this practice becomes over time (you've been driving for decades, right?).
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