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  #21  
Old 24.04.2021, 22:06
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Re: Bicycling rules

A comment based on the OP's second point: if someone is kind enough to yield to you at a junction, then good for you, as for any other road user. As a cyclist, however, it's advisable to be extra sure before you cross the path of a motorist, e.g. by making definite eye contact with them. It would be easy to misread the situation at a moment's glance and end up getting hurt.
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Old 25.04.2021, 10:24
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Re: Bicycling rules

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They may come to a full stop, because they may see you approaching the intersection without slowing down, so they just do not want to harm you and that is why they give you way.

On the other hand, if you show a proper slowing down (meaning your dynamics is as such you will stop before the stop line, not just slow down to give the other driver 2 seconds to cross the intersection before you will be on it), or if you are going uphill and continue pedaling, then the other driver giving you way is his own deliberate action and just a nice gesture towards you, so it is perfectly fine to take advantage of it.
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A comment based on the OP's second point: if someone is kind enough to yield to you at a junction, then good for you, as for any other road user. As a cyclist, however, it's advisable to be extra sure before you cross the path of a motorist, e.g. by making definite eye contact with them. It would be easy to misread the situation at a moment's glance and end up getting hurt.
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Both illegal to the best of my knowledge, and unwise. Do you realise that if that „accident waiting to happen“ does happen and your disrespect of road rules is beyond doubt, insurances may reduce their payments and you may face penury in addition to injury?
I'm a little bit astonished at the misunderstanding of the 'priority from the right' rule on Swiss roads and how it applies to cyclists. A motorist giving way (yielding) to a cyclist on his right in an unmarked junction isn't a 'nice gesture' or 'being kind', it's the law.

Now, as I've already mentioned, it behoves a cyclist to show caution in this situation from a sheer brute fact of their vulnerability. But if cyclists don't assert priority at such junctions, then it's going to cause confusion with other road users. It's a simple rule: all road users need to give way to traffic from their right on unmarked junctions.

Here are the relevant sections from the Swiss traffic regulations (the first states that bicycles and motor vehicles are treated the same, and the second gives the priority rule) are :

Art 1.2. Die Verkehrsregeln (Art. 26–57a) gelten für die Führer von Motorfahrzeugen und die Radfahrer auf allen dem öffentlichen Verkehr dienenden Strassen; für die übrigen Strassenbenützer nur auf den für Motorfahrzeuge oder Fahrräder ganz oder beschränkt offenen Strassen.6

Art 36.2. Auf Strassenverzweigungen hat das von rechts kommende Fahrzeug den Vortritt. Fahrzeuge auf gekennzeichneten Hauptstrassen haben den Vortritt, auch wenn sie von links kommen. Vorbehalten bleibt die Regelung durch Signale oder durch die Polizei.
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Old 25.04.2021, 10:45
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Re: Bicycling rules

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I'm a little bit astonished at the misunderstanding of the 'priority from the right' rule on Swiss roads and how it applies to cyclists. A motorist giving way (yielding) to a cyclist on his right in an unmarked junction isn't a 'nice gesture' or 'being kind', it's the law.

Now, as I've already mentioned, it behoves a cyclist to show caution in this situation from a sheer brute fact of their vulnerability. But if cyclists don't assert priority at such junctions, then it's going to cause confusion with other road users. It's a simple rule: all road users need to give way to traffic from their right on unmarked junctions.

Here are the relevant sections from the Swiss traffic regulations (the first states that bicycles and motor vehicles are treated the same, and the second gives the priority rule) are :

Art 1.2. Die Verkehrsregeln (Art. 26–57a) gelten für die Führer von Motorfahrzeugen und die Radfahrer auf allen dem öffentlichen Verkehr dienenden Strassen; für die übrigen Strassenbenützer nur auf den für Motorfahrzeuge oder Fahrräder ganz oder beschränkt offenen Strassen.6

Art 36.2. Auf Strassenverzweigungen hat das von rechts kommende Fahrzeug den Vortritt. Fahrzeuge auf gekennzeichneten Hauptstrassen haben den Vortritt, auch wenn sie von links kommen. Vorbehalten bleibt die Regelung durch Signale oder durch die Polizei.
what I understood from the text, is that OP did not have priority and forced more defensive drivers to yield.
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Old 25.04.2021, 11:01
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Re: Bicycling rules

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what I understood from the text, is that OP did not have priority and forced more defensive drivers to yield.
This is what the OP literally said:

I assume when on the road in an uncontrolled intersection where priority-to-the-right would apply, the same applies to you on the bicycle. In practice what has happened for me is cars will often just yield. And I instinctively maybe have some momentum going and maybe it's downhill a bit so I gladly accept their yield. Again doesn't feel like anything dangerous to me or which would endanger others, but would like to know the rule.

I'd interpret this as:

- I understand there's a 'priority from the right' rule
- I think this applies to bicycles
- Cars do yield to me in this situation, so am I right?

Maybe the OP can come back and clarify. If he means the opposite to my interpretation, then a reading of 36.2, answers his question...
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Old 25.04.2021, 11:02
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Re: Bicycling rules

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what I understood from the text, is that OP did not have priority and forced more defensive drivers to yield.
Me, too.

He says "accepts the yield", meaning he doesn't have priority.
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Old 25.04.2021, 14:27
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Re: Bicycling rules

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Me, too.

He says "accepts the yield", meaning he doesn't have priority.
I think cars are cautious around bikes - priority from the right is fairly confusing for many people.

Not the concept, just where it actually applies since the use of yellow diamonds seems inconsistent. For example, yesterday I was on a road that had a load of them, but not one crossed-out end-of-priority sign - so by my understanding (which may be wrong...) all but the first were actually not needed.

You can't see the give-way signs on the side roads to have confirmation of your priority, but if you're on what seems to be the main road the assumption of priority is fairly normal. So it seems a poor design really.
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  #27  
Old 25.04.2021, 14:30
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Re: Bicycling rules

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This is incorrect and if you drive a car you should be aware that cyclists might come in the opposite direction. Especially in smaller communal streets cyclists are allowed to ride in either direction. It is legal if the street is marked with the following sign:
The people using the one-way street in the "blue" direction won't see the "forbiden entrance" sign you posted.

Below is what they will see when entering the one-way road. It may vary as it depicts the kind of oncoming traffic allowed. The really important part is the warning triangle on the left, it instructs to expect bidirectional traffic (including them turning left, i.e. potentially crossing your path):


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I think cars are cautious around bikes - priority from the right is fairly confusing for many people.
Cautious, or maybe just reasonable. Most everybody here rides bicycles at least occasionally, including the car drivers, they will know from their own experience that it can be quite a nuisance to get back up to speed for the fast bicyclist. They're (almost) standing still already, so might just as well wait a few seconds and yield. Some even roll a bit to make their intent crystal clear. Otherwise a prudent bicyclist may well brake somewhat anyway, just in case.
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  #28  
Old 25.04.2021, 15:46
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Re: Bicycling rules

If you are cycling on the right hand side of a road that does not allow cars etc. and is shared with pedestrians, be aware that pedestrians should be walking on the left. I.e. towards you on your side of the road. It seems that a handful of cyclists are not aware of this and get a bit annoyed.

(And from a recent post of mine, do not ride on the pavement, especially at speed and especially at a tramstop with a tram stopped at it!)
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Old 25.04.2021, 16:54
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Re: Bicycling rules

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This is incorrect and if you drive a car you should be aware that cyclists might come in the opposite direction. Especially in smaller communal streets cyclists are allowed to ride in either direction. It is legal if the street is marked with the following sign:
That isn't what the OP was talking about, though. When you ride a bike against traffic on a one-way street where it is allowed, you still ride on the right side of the street from your perspective. OP explicitly talks of not so much being in the "wrong" direction, but riding left, i.e. on the wrong side of the street! Not only into incoming car traffic but also bicycle traffic

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1. I sometimes bike in the "wrong" direction inside the yellow dashed boundary. As in, on the left side.
To the OP, as someone who had a major frontal collision with another cyclist because they were riding on the wrong side of the street when I turned a tight corner, please, please, don't do that. It doesn't matter that it looks safe or the street is "generally" low traffic. I only takes one time where the other cyclist doesn't see you for whatever reason (turning a corner, a cyclist overtaking another cyclist, etc) and you've created a very dangerous collision. Even if you don't cause an accident, you force others to do things they shouldn't have to do and cause frustration. Would you drive your car on the wrong side of the road because "that road isn't really busy and it's usually safe"? Of course not. Don't do it.

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2. I assume when on the road in an uncontrolled intersection where priority-to-the-right would apply, the same applies to you on the bicycle. In practice what has happened for me is cars will often just yield. And I instinctively maybe have some momentum going and maybe it's downhill a bit so I gladly accept their yield. Again doesn't feel like anything dangerous to me or which would endanger others, but would like to know the rule
Yes priority rules apply to you.

If you meant the car is on your left and they yield, yes, that's what they're supposed to do. As a cyclist it's obviously not a bad idea to make eye contact and make sure they've seen you and will follow the rule. But yes, in principle, you have priority and you should assert it.

If you meant the car is on your right, then no, you don't have priority. Cars often yield, but don't rely on it, and you should always plan to stop.

Cars yielding is a big pet peeve of mine actually. When they see you well in advance, stop completely, look to make eye contact and a yielding gesture way before you get to the intersection, then yeah sure, thank you I appreciate it, I'll keep my momentum. But three out of four times, they just ambivalently slow down with no clear indication that they're yielding and only make a gesture (if they make one at all) when I'm already geared down and braking or completely stopped, and it ends up with everyone losing time. By the time I've gotten back up to speed and crossed the intersection, we both could have crossed had they not yielded.
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Old 25.04.2021, 19:36
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Re: Bicycling rules

People should not yield their priority and others should not accept their yield. I can think of many different cases where yielding to "be nice" can be extremely dangerous and lead to a serious accident. The first ones that come to mind are:

- Traffic behind the vehicle that yields, does not expect - obviously - their yielding.

- another vehicle (car, bike, bicycle, whatever), on the lane next to the yielding vehicle, takes advantage of their priority and cross the intersection...

I personally do not accept their "kind" yielding and insist on them advancing.

The same goes for pedestrian crossings. Some pedestrians yield their priority, but another pedestrian from the same or opposite side of the crossing, might not notice and cross at the same time the car advances...

Traffic rules are to be obeyed, for the safety of everyone. By yielding priority, one disobeys the rules and creates unsafe traffic situations. Period.
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Old 25.04.2021, 19:57
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Re: Bicycling rules

I recently was about to make a right turn at a light controlled intersection in downtown Zurich when at the last moment I was cut off by a skateboarder who passed me on the right in the bike lane. Afterwards it got me wondering who had the right of way. Is it still correct that if the light is green one has the right of way to turn right? Or is there a new rule that warning detectors are now required on a car's blind spot?
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Old 25.04.2021, 20:23
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Re: Bicycling rules

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I recently was about to make a right turn at a light controlled intersection in downtown Zurich when at the last moment I was cut off by a skateboarder who passed me on the right in the bike lane. Afterwards it got me wondering who had the right of way. Is it still correct that if the light is green one has the right of way to turn right? Or is there a new rule that warning detectors are now required on a car's blind spot?
You would have been in the wrong. You have to ensure you can safely turn without endangering others before making your turn. Certainly you do not have an absolute right to turn right without regard to other traffic legally in the bike lane.

At least if it had been a bike - not sure about the legality of skateboards and bike lanes.

Nothing new about this btw.
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Old 25.04.2021, 20:53
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Re: Bicycling rules

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I recently was about to make a right turn at a light controlled intersection in downtown Zurich when at the last moment I was cut off by a skateboarder who passed me on the right in the bike lane. Afterwards it got me wondering who had the right of way. Is it still correct that if the light is green one has the right of way to turn right? Or is there a new rule that warning detectors are now required on a car's blind spot?
Without going into whether a skateboard belongs in the bike line...Do you check your blind spot before changing lanes on the freeway? Do you check your blind spot before turning from a street into a driveway? Why would turning right at a traffic light be any different?
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Old 25.04.2021, 20:53
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Re: Bicycling rules

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You would have been in the wrong. You have to ensure you can safely turn without endangering others before making your turn. Certainly you do not have an absolute right to turn right without regard to other traffic legally in the bike lane.

At least if it had been a bike - not sure about the legality of skateboards and bike lanes.

Nothing new about this btw.
Actually it was one of those electric rental scooters and it must of been doing at least 20 KMH. Luckily I could break in the beginning of my turn.
Wouldn't it be logical that bike lanes should also have their own traffic signals like the rest (cars, pedestrians, buses and trams)? If the light is green then the bike lane should have a red light like the crosswalk's. Or is that asking too much from the town?
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Old 26.04.2021, 10:21
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Re: Bicycling rules

Name:  20190525_111333_bak.jpg
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Size:  22.5 KB for anyone who wants to be confused about cycling in Versoix.
I quizzed the Versoix authorities about the meaning and it's apparently all about the distinction between "piste cyclable" and "bande cyclable", and the end of one and the beginning of the other. I'm not going to try and translate and explain, because it's the sort of thing that can only make sense to a lawyer and is incomprehensible to a poor cyclist who got confronted with this nonsense.
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Old 26.04.2021, 10:35
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Re: Bicycling rules

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Cars yielding is a big pet peeve of mine actually. When they see you well in advance, stop completely, look to make eye contact and a yielding gesture way before you get to the intersection, then yeah sure, thank you I appreciate it, I'll keep my momentum. But three out of four times, they just ambivalently slow down with no clear indication that they're yielding and only make a gesture (if they make one at all) when I'm already geared down and braking or completely stopped, and it ends up with everyone losing time. By the time I've gotten back up to speed and crossed the intersection, we both could have crossed had they not yielded.
I got this point once after pedaling daily to work for 4 years. I realized I was not enjoying it anymore. It had became just another chore and started thinking about optimization. So, went cold turkey, got a GA and left the bike for the weekends of the afternoons that I really wanted to ride.

Eventually,the GA became a car but the bike is waiting in the cellar and just ride it when I want to. Always a pleasure since then, mind the cramps and close encounters with forest plants with spikes
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Old 26.04.2021, 13:09
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Re: Bicycling rules

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Actually it was one of those electric rental scooters and it must of been doing at least 20 KMH. Luckily I could break in the beginning of my turn.
Wouldn't it be logical that bike lanes should also have their own traffic signals like the rest (cars, pedestrians, buses and trams)? If the light is green then the bike lane should have a red light like the crosswalk's. Or is that asking too much from the town?
If you are on a multilane street, it's your responsibility to check other lanes and yield to traffic on them before invading them.

Typically in this situation, the bike lane merges with the car lane before the light or roundabout, in which case with your preselection you physically block any overtaking from the right.

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Attachment 141736 for anyone who wants to be confused about cycling in Versoix.
I quizzed the Versoix authorities about the meaning and it's apparently all about the distinction between "piste cyclable" and "bande cyclable", and the end of one and the beginning of the other. I'm not going to try and translate and explain, because it's the sort of thing that can only make sense to a lawyer and is incomprehensible to a poor cyclist who got confronted with this nonsense.
In the bike lane, pedestrians are not allowed. Usually they have blue signs with both people and bike for mixed paths though.
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Old 26.04.2021, 14:09
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Re: Bicycling rules

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Actually it was one of those electric rental scooters and it must of been doing at least 20 KMH. Luckily I could break in the beginning of my turn.
Wouldn't it be logical that bike lanes should also have their own traffic signals like the rest (cars, pedestrians, buses and trams)? If the light is green then the bike lane should have a red light like the crosswalk's. Or is that asking too much from the town?
No, IMHO not logical. That would increase the number of separate red/green phases massively, for no real gain.

Small objects often appear to be moving faster than they actually do, especially if they take you by surprise. That said, e-scooter mustn't do more than 20km/h; AFAIK only those that passed a type test are allowed on the roads. Other than that, bicycle regulations apply, including usage of the bike lanes.

The problem may be that he overtook on the right while the cars were moving, your case shows why that's forbidden.

Last edited by Urs Max; 26.04.2021 at 14:25.
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Old 26.04.2021, 14:20
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Re: Bicycling rules

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[sign removed] for anyone who wants to be confused about cycling in Versoix.
I quizzed the Versoix authorities about the meaning and it's apparently all about the distinction between "piste cyclable" and "bande cyclable", and the end of one and the beginning of the other. I'm not going to try and translate and explain, because it's the sort of thing that can only make sense to a lawyer and is incomprehensible to a poor cyclist who got confronted with this nonsense.
The blue sign says "you have to use this", it's usually something like a sidewalk that's jointly used by pedestrians and bicycles, often with split "lanes" (yellow separation line) for either.

The white sign says "bicycles allowed", but it applies to the road rather than the sidewalk. An ordinary road (50km/h limit) will usually either have a bike lane or repeated yellow bicycles painted on the asphalt on the right, not sure how that's handled with lower speed limit roads.
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Old 26.04.2021, 16:35
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Re: Bicycling rules

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I recently was about to make a right turn at a light controlled intersection in downtown Zurich when at the last moment I was cut off by a skateboarder who passed me on the right in the bike lane. Afterwards it got me wondering who had the right of way. Is it still correct that if the light is green one has the right of way to turn right? Or is there a new rule that warning detectors are now required on a car's blind spot?
To avoid this in future, when turning right, filter all the way to the right and "block" the bike lane. This was what my driving instructor told me many years ago.
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