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  #21  
Old 09.05.2021, 12:34
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Well yes, but IMO that also applies to new cars. There have been so many discussions about leasing on here over the years, but I've never seen any convincing argument in its favour. If leasing is the only way you can see to afford a particular cost of vehicle, then you can't afford it, period.
Totally agree. As said before, personally believe that if leasing is outlawed it would solve many a problem.
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  #22  
Old 09.05.2021, 18:26
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Your insurance also seems high. I pay much less for both my cars, which are newer and more expensive.
Insurance also depends on nationality and permit, from what I've seen so far.
I guess also on power and such.

Like, the moment I enter L permit in those computers, they reject me and say to contact the agent directly.

Plus, when I put B permit (which is unlikely I'll get, because croatia), I've seen like 200 chf difference for the same vehicle easily based on nationality of the policy holder. Not to mention that online I hardly saw where to enter 'years of no claims'

I need a good agent if someone has one to recommend, I'm all ears

So far I've found something like 400-500 chf for obligatory, and 500-700 chf for half kasko for our mazda mx5 from 2006... I didn't check full kasko though. But I can see how newer and stronger car will have higher premiums.

@doropfiz great link, thanks for sharing

@zile YOLO is true, but you can still do smart(er) YOLO
At least I'm convincing myself that I'm avoiding dumb YOLO

My SO wants julia quadrifoglio so I hope we'll buy it some day
This mazda is only expense for us here in Berlin, especially since SO bought motorbike.
But we love it, and those trips we did with it were really great experiences.

We're sentimental and even though we put selling it on the table like 3 times in last several years, every time we decided against it for some (seemingly valid) reason. And now I'm looking into how to import it with us in CH (to keep it sitting there in some parking lot :P ) ok, idea is that I'll ride it for groceries and such, since we plan to live in some smaller town or who knows where... but then, I need to relearn how to drive the car

Plus I plan to buy motorbike when we come.... Since I get really exhausted when cycling, in this flat Berlin, I can't imagine how hard will it be in ZH area for me

But I doubt we did even 300 km last few years in car, per each year
And one our suitcase is bigger than its trunk.
But I still don't want to change it nor sell it.
Current plan is that we give it until the end of this year and we'll revise our usage. Since move to CH jumped in, maybe we'll prolong the decision a bit.

So my additional advice would be - be aware that emotions can screw you over
And do your spreadsheets as precise as you can. And do put it on the table each year and think out loud, weigh pro and cons vs usage or reasons for not using it and so on.
Don't just go through the motions of paying for it if you don't use it or it stops bringing joy.

So the most important thing would definitely be to check conditions to stop the leasing in your case.

We own ours so for us is 'to sell or not to sell' type of talk we do.
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  #23  
Old 10.05.2021, 12:38
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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The car I would like to lease is:
Audi RS7
year: 2014-2016
kilometers: 60k-80k
price: ~60k francs

The lease specs I am considering:
cost: ~1000 francs
lenght: 3-5 years
km per year: 20k
downpayment: 0 francs

Additionally, the car insurance for such a car would be an additional 300francs per month. This would mean that total monthly costs would be around 1300francs (without gas costs).
I YOLOed too I pay ~850 CHF a month of leasing for a 84K CHF sales price over 4 years, 15K km a year. BMW M4 demo car with 600 km. Not new, because I did not choose the seat stitching, I just took a showroom car.

Something seems a bit off in the leasing quote you got. Too high monthly payment for only 60K of financed capital. I might have a idea of why a 1K leasing for only 60K financed capital. A couple years ago I really wanted a 911, looked at the prices and 3-4 year old one seemed reasonable. After visiting several dealerships I found two things in common that made the leasing NOT reasonable: (i) too low residual value, (ii) leasing interest rate.

A 3-4 year old 911 was also about 80K but the estimated residual value was 29 K CHF. So, I asked in the most insolent way I could if they had 8 year old 911s for sale at 29K. Anyway, I liked the generation before a bit more. I thoroughly enjoyed the hate in the eyes of the car sales guy. For some reason Porsche applies a depreciation rate of 60-65% even for a used car. Look around autoscout and there's not way to get that price. I don't know what's the assumption behind, that you're going to destroy the car? In comparison BMW estimated 43% depreciation over 4 years, therefore monthly payments are lower. I don't remember exactly the interest rate offered by Porsche but it was either 3.6 or 4.6%, anyway it was a lot above the 0.9% I signed. Recently, I've seen 0.0% in some places. The extra debt cause by the higher interest interest could become a 13th month of leasing every year.

Back to your RS7, a leasing of 1'000 per month for 60K capital means a residual value of 12K. 80% estimated depreciation. If you intend to keep the car for a long time it's OK, but having liquidity is much better.

Looking quickly at some ads, it seems you may find some better terms. This poor soul is trying to escape from a leasing contract (lease transfer) only asking a down payment of 2'000 and 750 monthly for the remaining 37 months of leasing. If you like the color, already 250 less per month and 1 full year less of leasing https://leasetransfer.ch/detail-anno...cueil,4,search

zile, you also asked about something scammy. Well, it's not scammy because it's clearly explained on the contract, but anyway be careful. On most leasing contracts there's a penalty fee if you want to end the contract before term. There's a table that says the fee per month. In my leasing the first door to leave the leasing opened at 3 months of signature and the fee was 24K CHF. At it decreases little by little every month until zero 48 months later. So, you don't want find yourself in the position where you want to end the contract before term......or become just another poor soul putting an ad on leasetransfer.ch

The full casco insurance for a 600 PS car seems reasonable. Depending on your age and citizenship, it can be much more

Last edited by Axa; 10.05.2021 at 12:50.
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  #24  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:42
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

OP likely was offered full leasing with assumption he'd want to keep the car at the leasing end - same time solve the issue of the garage as "who may want that car at year 10+ of it's life - at any price "
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  #25  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:48
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

I'd think of EV and not ICE if you for a joy of driving in CH - there isn't much places where you can use 600PS - and from 0-60 it won't even start in the RPM range to get close to it's limits ( until remapping gearbox and few other things I guess )

get something like a Tesla or similar - 550PS EV will do better than any ICE .. I get it won't make a nice noise you may be after - so get Tesla supply you software "Humming" package of 911 or similar so it can be heard on entertainment system in the car and linked to "gas pedal"action - I think they could do misfiring even for you !
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  #26  
Old 10.05.2021, 19:49
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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I YOLOed too I pay ~850 CHF a month of leasing for a 84K CHF sales price over 4 years, 15K km a year. BMW M4 demo car with 600 km. Not new, because I did not choose the seat stitching, I just took a showroom car.

Something seems a bit off in the leasing quote you got. Too high monthly payment for only 60K of financed capital. I might have a idea of why a 1K leasing for only 60K financed capital. A couple years ago I really wanted a 911, looked at the prices and 3-4 year old one seemed reasonable. After visiting several dealerships I found two things in common that made the leasing NOT reasonable: (i) too low residual value, (ii) leasing interest rate.

A 3-4 year old 911 was also about 80K but the estimated residual value was 29 K CHF. So, I asked in the most insolent way I could if they had 8 year old 911s for sale at 29K. Anyway, I liked the generation before a bit more. I thoroughly enjoyed the hate in the eyes of the car sales guy. For some reason Porsche applies a depreciation rate of 60-65% even for a used car. Look around autoscout and there's not way to get that price. I don't know what's the assumption behind, that you're going to destroy the car? In comparison BMW estimated 43% depreciation over 4 years, therefore monthly payments are lower. I don't remember exactly the interest rate offered by Porsche but it was either 3.6 or 4.6%, anyway it was a lot above the 0.9% I signed. Recently, I've seen 0.0% in some places. The extra debt cause by the higher interest interest could become a 13th month of leasing every year.

Back to your RS7, a leasing of 1'000 per month for 60K capital means a residual value of 12K. 80% estimated depreciation. If you intend to keep the car for a long time it's OK, but having liquidity is much better.

Looking quickly at some ads, it seems you may find some better terms. This poor soul is trying to escape from a leasing contract (lease transfer) only asking a down payment of 2'000 and 750 monthly for the remaining 37 months of leasing. If you like the color, already 250 less per month and 1 full year less of leasing https://leasetransfer.ch/detail-anno...cueil,4,search

zile, you also asked about something scammy. Well, it's not scammy because it's clearly explained on the contract, but anyway be careful. On most leasing contracts there's a penalty fee if you want to end the contract before term. There's a table that says the fee per month. In my leasing the first door to leave the leasing opened at 3 months of signature and the fee was 24K CHF. At it decreases little by little every month until zero 48 months later. So, you don't want find yourself in the position where you want to end the contract before term......or become just another poor soul putting an ad on leasetransfer.ch

The full casco insurance for a 600 PS car seems reasonable. Depending on your age and citizenship, it can be much more
Porsche don‘t offer competitive finance, as the cars sell themselves in Switzerland. They are also conservative in setting the final payment figure so there is no chance of them taking a loss - again the cars sell themselves, so they don‘t have to play the high residual, low monthly payment game to sell. I queried the residual on my Boxster Spyder and the salesman told me that if they put a realistic residual on them „anyone could buy one“.

They also don‘t discount much (via work I regularly get 25-35% off the big 3 German brands, Porsche is 3-7% model dependent). At the end of the lease term the 84k Porsche will be worth more than the 84k BMW.

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I'd think of EV and not ICE if you for a joy of driving in CH - there isn't much places where you can use 600PS - and from 0-60 it won't even start in the RPM range to get close to it's limits ( until remapping gearbox and few other things I guess )

get something like a Tesla or similar - 550PS EV will do better than any ICE .. I get it won't make a nice noise you may be after - so get Tesla supply you software "Humming" package of 911 or similar so it can be heard on entertainment system in the car and linked to "gas pedal"action - I think they could do misfiring even for you !
No one who is truly into the „joy of driving“ ever recommends a Tesla. They are a white good appliance and the fun of going quickly in a straight line quickly diminishes, the car doesn‘t enjoy being thrashed and they don‘t go round corners like a sports car.
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  #27  
Old 10.05.2021, 21:16
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Porsche don‘t offer competitive finance, as the cars sell themselves in Switzerland. They are also conservative in setting the final payment figure so there is no chance of them taking a loss - again the cars sell themselves, so they don‘t have to play the high residual, low monthly payment game to sell. I queried the residual on my Boxster Spyder and the salesman told me that if they put a realistic residual on them „anyone could buy one“.

They also don‘t discount much (via work I regularly get 25-35% off the big 3 German brands, Porsche is 3-7% model dependent). At the end of the lease term the 84k Porsche will be worth more than the 84k BMW.
Thanks for the insights! I guess they're used to people showing up with cash

I told my story about Porsche finance to exemplify how residual value and interest rate can make a significant difference in the monthly payment. A 400 diff a month made choose one car over the other. For OP there's basically no residual value which may be important, or irrelevant.

Anyway, wouldn't it be great if anyone could afford a 981 spyder? Red please
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Old 10.05.2021, 21:30
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

Paid 12k for our Boxster with 60k km.

Tom
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Old 10.05.2021, 21:39
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Thanks for the insights! I guess they're used to people showing up with cash

I told my story about Porsche finance to exemplify how residual value and interest rate can make a significant difference in the monthly payment. A 400 diff a month made choose one car over the other. For OP there's basically no residual value which may be important, or irrelevant.

Anyway, wouldn't it be great if anyone could afford a 981 spyder? Red please
I reckon most are leased. Even in Switzerland there aren‘t that many people who can walk in and pay CHF 80-250k in cash. 911s are everywhere. There‘s also the classic story of all the Cayennes being dumped in 2008, as the lease amount was conveniently the amount that was given as a car allowance by UBS which was taken away.

Yes are completely right about the residual and interest rate having a huge impact on the monthly rate, but it is better to focus on the total cost of ownership, including the expected depreciation and the total interest paid.

Mine is a 718 Spyder and the roof and some of the interior is red (gratuitous photo opportunity time )

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Old 10.05.2021, 21:47
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

Most expensive vehicle that I own is the first series low number (#29) 999R that I bought new with cash.

Tom
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  #31  
Old 11.05.2021, 00:00
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

Nice boxster!

There are lots of 911s but not that many manuals in interesting colors. There are even some turbo tiptronic ones out there.

I got my M4 2 weeks after the hideous grille of the new generation was revealed to the world. I hope depreciation is not that bad and people try to buy models before the disfiguration. Enjoying roofless trips for the moment, even the shopping ones (gratuitous photo)

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Old 11.05.2021, 11:05
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Porsche don‘t offer competitive finance, as the cars sell themselves in Switzerland. They are also conservative in setting the final payment figure so there is no chance of them taking a loss - again the cars sell themselves, so they don‘t have to play the high residual, low monthly payment game to sell. I queried the residual on my Boxster Spyder and the salesman told me that if they put a realistic residual on them „anyone could buy one“.

They also don‘t discount much (via work I regularly get 25-35% off the big 3 German brands, Porsche is 3-7% model dependent). At the end of the lease term the 84k Porsche will be worth more than the 84k BMW.
I made slightly different experiences:
1. Financing. I used Porsche bank to finance a 5 year old Panamera 4s that was a return from a lease contract. I had to ask for it, but their rates were better than most in the market.

2. We ordered a new 21 Panamera coming in June... through the employer via a large well-known leasing company. They got discounts at selected Porsche dealers that nearly matched those of MB and BMW. The discounts the dealer was willing to give on hybrids was even bigger and on top of the fleet discount... (no, i didnt take a hybrid). because they apparently have CO2 emission targets and I have the feeling that Porsche Zurich will fail those miserably... maybe the Macan EV can fix that.
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Old 11.05.2021, 15:40
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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I made slightly different experiences:
1. Financing. I used Porsche bank to finance a 5 year old Panamera 4s that was a return from a lease contract. I had to ask for it, but their rates were better than most in the market.

2. We ordered a new 21 Panamera coming in June... through the employer via a large well-known leasing company. They got discounts at selected Porsche dealers that nearly matched those of MB and BMW. The discounts the dealer was willing to give on hybrids was even bigger and on top of the fleet discount... (no, i didnt take a hybrid). because they apparently have CO2 emission targets and I have the feeling that Porsche Zurich will fail those miserably... maybe the Macan EV can fix that.
1. I think second hand is a different story, because there are all sorts of cross-subsidies from the manufacturer going on with new cars that doesn‘t apply to second hand sales. Porsche use Bank-Now and their rates don‘t seem to change whether for new or used. From memory when buying the new GLC vs. A Macan the rate was 1.5% with MB and 3.9% with Porsche. Looking at Bank-Now and Cembra they range from 3.9-5.9% so would agree that they are market rate.

2. I‘m interested who this well-known leasing company is, as I just checked again and Big 3 discounts are far better than with Porsche (interestingly the Taycan has the largest discount though, which bears out what you say about emissions, but I think it‘s way overpriced in Switzerland anyway). I assumed that as one of the largest employers in Switzerland, we had access to the best deals with all of the German brands. Happy to be proven wrong though.

3. Macan EV is looking like a MY23 event, so might start seeing them on the road here in September 22. Short of a financial crisis, I think the demand for them will be insane.
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Old 11.05.2021, 20:54
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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1. I think second hand is a different story, because there are all sorts of cross-subsidies from the manufacturer going on with new cars that doesn‘t apply to second hand sales. Porsche use Bank-Now and their rates don‘t seem to change whether for new or used. From memory when buying the new GLC vs. A Macan the rate was 1.5% with MB and 3.9% with Porsche. Looking at Bank-Now and Cembra they range from 3.9-5.9% so would agree that they are market rate.
The Macan rate by Porsche bank in Germany is 0.9%. In CH? 4.4...?! My old Panamera was 5 years ago and back then was the leasing handled by bank now, but the rate was below 2. Not sure what changed. They probably figured out that Swiss customers dont bother...
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Old 11.05.2021, 21:18
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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No one who is truly into the „joy of driving“ ever recommends a Tesla. They are a white good appliance and the fun of going quickly in a straight line quickly diminishes, the car doesn‘t enjoy being thrashed and they don‘t go round corners like a sports car.
Yes, I have seen way to many these sport cars taking narrow corners in the alps passes when cycling - I do not believe that is what defines joy of driving or it is?
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Old 11.05.2021, 21:24
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Yes, I have seen way to many these sport cars taking narrow corners in the alps passes when cycling - I do not believe that is what defines joy of driving or it is?
The joy of driving is essentially to control an interesting machine on a challenging road. Alpine passes are about perfect. Machines are "interesting" when they are fun to control, well balanced and give good feedback of what the car is doing with your inputs.

The problem with EVs is that pretty much all of them feel very disconnected from the driver - the controls are about as direct as my PlayStation controller. Yes, Porsche tries the hardest to make it work and Tesla is about as bad as it gets (Ok, the BMW i3 is worse...). Because their vision is ultimately a self driving car - the exact opposite of what a driver wants.
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Old 11.05.2021, 23:33
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

General rule of thumb in CH and buying cars: if you can't pay with cash, you can't afford it.

An RS7 is a very expensive and rather useless car in CH. Overpowered, too heavy, huge engine, huge tyres(' cost), pricey insurance - and no place to drive it really anywhere near its limits.

A 60k car will be worth 16-20k in 4 years when it reaches the magical 10-yr age and noone wants to buy it off you (but the yearly maintenance is still gonna cost you 2k on average though). That's a 40k depreciation on top of your gigantic cost burden in under 4 years.

It's basically throwing money out of the window and not looking.

If you want fun, get a 3-5 yr old MX5 and have it until it rusts away (which might be never). Much more fun than an RS7 at a fraction of the cost.

I'm having an M135xi with 400+HP (and a baby seat in the back and actual boot space ), but my full casco only comes to 1100CHF a year, so your 300-a-month insurance sounds like a well planted rip-off.

My advice if you insist on big Audis: Get an RS4 avant for peanuts, use it for the summer and sell it again.
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Old 11.05.2021, 23:39
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Maybe, instead of leasing the specific car on which you have your eye, you could, from time to time, just rent a fun experience car, and not burden your monthly budget, every month, on and on. See, for example:
https://furiouscars.ch/fahrzeuge/
Carvolution has a BMW 330e Touring on offer, which is not an RS7, but still plenty fast. And you can give it back after the summer has ended.
https://www.carvolution.com/de/fahrz...330e-advantage
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Old 11.05.2021, 23:46
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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Enjoying roofless trips for the moment, even the shopping ones (gratuitous photo)

I guess this image doesn't go well with the roofless shopping trips, though, now does it? :P
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Old 12.05.2021, 06:34
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Re: Leasing a 6 years old used sports car

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General rule of thumb in CH and buying cars: if you can't pay with cash, you can't afford it.

That's a bit like saying 'don't rent an apartment/house if you can't afford to pay cash' Or even 'don't mortgage an apartment/house'


Why not? I lease my cars and am very happy with the arrangement. I do not consider it as 'paying off an asset', but rather paying for a service every month. I hope that there is enough value at the end of the lease to be able to put down a large(ish) deposit for another car and so far it's worked out pretty well.


What's wrong with people wanting nice cars and who are willing to pay a fee every month to enjoy them?
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