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  #41  
Old 17.08.2021, 14:20
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Re: What car?

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Design, engines, gearboxes.

The M3 is the new M5 (for quite some time now), the M5 is for all intents and purposes an M7, and the M8 is just too expensive and not large enough inside.

The M2 is the only saving grace in the lineup and you have to go Competition or CS to be worth it, otherwise it feels like a 235 (or 240).

Nothing in the normal range interests me, they're more appliances than anything else IMHO, the design has been downhill for quite some time, and sh1t like subscription-based options is crazytown and unacceptable business practices that I will not reward with a purchase.

Carplay as a subscription? They even tried to do HEATED SEATS as a subscription.

I grew up in, I've owned 2 (one from new) and I don't think I'm ever walking in a dealer again. And that makes me sad TBH
No longer ‘the ultimate driving machine’. It’s sad indeed. I don’t have much experience of BMW unfortunately but I grew up lusting after an E46 M3 which by all accounts is a fantastic car and probably one of the best ever BMWs. I can’t believe where they are now. A new 330i is a 2 litre, 4 cylinder turbo!

Not to mention the end of hydraulic steering and lack of feedback. I think you’re right that they are now essentially appliances designed to attract fashion victims. It’s a real pity. It looks Porsche is the way forward. I hear good things about their electric steering being streets ahead in terms of feedback. The GT4 looks like a fantastic package for the money.
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  #42  
Old 17.08.2021, 14:25
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Re: What car?

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You know, I was talking to a friend over lunch (more moaning about how non-responsive the dealers I contacted are), and he asked "why not another subau?"

I love my subaru, and while it's not in CH, it's a pleasure to drive... off road, it puts a grin on my face...

So the BRZ is now on the shortlist

I still have a hankering for a big V8... but it doesn't seem to be an easy car to order (the only dealer that has actually replied estimated a 12-month+ lead time)
The 2022 BRZ is likely a fantastic option. This is essentially a Toyota GR86 (replaces the GT86) and they remedy the single biggest complaint about the current car which is the mid-range torque dip. Upping the engine from a 2 litre to 2.4 litre is said to bring considerable improvements in this regard as well as other improvements. I think it will be a great car!
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  #43  
Old 17.08.2021, 14:58
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Re: What car?

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No longer ‘the ultimate driving machine’. It’s sad indeed. I don’t have much experience of BMW unfortunately but I grew up lusting after an E46 M3 which by all accounts is a fantastic car and probably one of the best ever BMWs. I can’t believe where they are now. A new 330i is a 2 litre, 4 cylinder turbo!

Not to mention the end of hydraulic steering and lack of feedback. I hear good things about their electric steering being streets ahead in terms of feedback. The GT4 looks like a fantastic package for the money.
A formula 1 engine is only 1.6 litre. Hydraulic steering has been redundant for a very long time now and I think that most companies have tweaked the electric versions to a point where they are not too far off. I agree that the GT4 is a great package, but perhaps a little 'shouty'? I do think that for everything that it provides, the new M cars are extremely capable.
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  #44  
Old 17.08.2021, 15:05
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Re: What car?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Alpine A110.

It's almost in your budget. 0-100 in 4.5s and top speed of 250km/h and probably one of the best cars for Alpine road fun.
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  #45  
Old 17.08.2021, 15:23
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Re: What car?

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A formula 1 engine is only 1.6 litre. Hydraulic steering has been redundant for a very long time now and I think that most companies have tweaked the electric versions to a point where they are not too far off. I agree that the GT4 is a great package, but perhaps a little 'shouty'? I do think that for everything that it provides, the new M cars are extremely capable.
Modern F1 is terrible!

I’m driving a car with hydraulic steering so certainly not redundant for me

Not sure what you mean by ‘extremely capable’ regarding the new M cars. I’ve no doubt they’re fast and have a host of onboard computers fighting to keep even the most incompetent drivers on the road but that is not in the spirit of what a BMW used to be.
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  #46  
Old 17.08.2021, 15:39
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Re: What car?

How about a mazda mx-5.

+ Great Fun even at low speeds
- Poor looks and interior (but who cares)

Alternatively: Abarth (Fiat) 124 Sypder
+ Great Fun even at low speeds
- Better looks
- Still poor interior (but who cares)
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  #47  
Old 17.08.2021, 15:45
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Re: What car?

Can't go wrong with a Sub WRX STi
https://youtu.be/rP2-UHXJ3pU
Problem is you can't get em new here anymore.
But a Sub garage will happily service one for you.
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  #48  
Old 17.08.2021, 16:05
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Re: What car?

BRZ great choice, but a bit cramped inside and could be considered a bit anemic. But as a more practical MX5 alternative, I don't think you can beat it.

A110 I also wanted to recommend and literally wrote when posting earlier, but deleted before posting because it doesn't fit the 4-seat requirement. Amazing little car, a friend just got one a few months ago and couldn't get my eyes of the rearview mirror while we we

The GT4 (and Spyder for the open top experience) is great value, but it needs its gearing addressed because it's frankly ridiculous. I would also expect quite reasonable depreciation on them, I was looking at them a year ago, and a year later they're pretty stable.

2-seater world is admittedly much richer ground for what OP is looking for, but if they need space they need space. We've unfortunately at a point in life where even 2 seaters are getting quite compromised so one can imagine how slim pickings are for more practical cars.
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  #49  
Old 17.08.2021, 16:38
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Re: What car?

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but that is not in the spirit of what a BMW used to be.
I'm always curious about people's nostalgia. First it was the electric steering (Granted, not as feelsome as hydraulic), then there was the turbocharging of smaller capacity engines and recently the outpouring of love for manual transmission.

I really think that a lot of this is rose tinted glasses. Do we go back to non ABS brakes, so that one can modulate ones own braking?

A lot of these items are also due to customers and journos demanding more and more. I remember when the 1st gen M2 came out, it was hailed as really great, however, there were complaints that the interior leather was not napa, that it didn't have the 'winged' M mirrors and generally that the interior was not luxurious enough! Guess what they did for subsequent models?
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  #50  
Old 17.08.2021, 17:02
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Re: What car?

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The GT4 (and Spyder for the open top experience) is great value, but it needs its gearing addressed because it's frankly ridiculous. I would also expect quite reasonable depreciation on them, I was looking at them a year ago, and a year later they're pretty stable.
No the gearing doesn‘t need sorting. Sure it would be be an improvement, but it really isn’t the big deal that the motoring press make out. 1st is a usable gear rather than just one for starting off in.

Signed - An owner
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  #51  
Old 17.08.2021, 17:12
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Re: What car?

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I really think that a lot of this is rose tinted glasses.
Nope its not nostalgia, just much, much better 'fun' while driving. I still have E46, and the smoothness of driving is really incomparable with anything else in the same class regardless of the age. If I want to cut corners sharp on some empty mountain roads, 1.5 tonne car moves nimbly and the limits of the drive are mainly behind steering wheel.

I don't care about easier turning of steering wheel with over-powered assistance, many cheap cars have them. The chirurgic precision, firmness yet so light that on highways I never drive with 2 hands unless traffic is really dense. They really hit the sweet spot wit it (for its class).

That's car that's 18 years old now since it went down assembly line and for me it still drives better than any of the peers.

You are incorrect in statement that this is what people wanted - in contrary, this was pushed by manufacturers as cheaper alternative. It took even Porsche with 911 few generations for customers to accept electrical steering - it makes worse the whole reason why people buy these cars - the experience driving it.
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  #52  
Old 17.08.2021, 18:23
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Re: What car?

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I'm always curious about people's nostalgia. First it was the electric steering (Granted, not as feelsome as hydraulic), then there was the turbocharging of smaller capacity engines and recently the outpouring of love for manual transmission.

I really think that a lot of this is rose tinted glasses. Do we go back to non ABS brakes, so that one can modulate ones own braking?

A lot of these items are also due to customers and journos demanding more and more. I remember when the 1st gen M2 came out, it was hailed as really great, however, there were complaints that the interior leather was not napa, that it didn't have the 'winged' M mirrors and generally that the interior was not luxurious enough! Guess what they did for subsequent models?
I can only speak for myself and it’s certainly not a case of nostalgia for me. I’ve loved manual transmission since I learnt what a car is. Good question regarding the ABS. I could tentatively answer yes, get rid of it. However, it’s a bit more complicated than that as there’s also the safety question and then the statistics of how many lives were saved due to its introduction etc. No matter how good the driver, in practical terms it’s a useful aid if one has to stop in an emergency due to some eejit or otherwise.
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Old 17.08.2021, 18:34
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Re: What car?

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Nope its not nostalgia, just much, much better 'fun' while driving. I still have E46, and the smoothness of driving is really incomparable with anything else in the same class regardless of the age. If I want to cut corners sharp on some empty mountain roads, 1.5 tonne car moves nimbly and the limits of the drive are mainly behind steering wheel.

I don't care about easier turning of steering wheel with over-powered assistance, many cheap cars have them. The chirurgic precision, firmness yet so light that on highways I never drive with 2 hands unless traffic is really dense. They really hit the sweet spot wit it (for its class).

That's car that's 18 years old now since it went down assembly line and for me it still drives better than any of the peers.

You are incorrect in statement that this is what people wanted - in contrary, this was pushed by manufacturers as cheaper alternative. It took even Porsche with 911 few generations for customers to accept electrical steering - it makes worse the whole reason why people buy these cars - the experience driving it.
The E46 M3 actually ticks all of Spinal’s requirements except the fact that it isn’t new (0-100 time is on the limit). The problem is that clean, low-mileage, manual versions are like rocking horse shit (impossible to find)
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Old 17.08.2021, 18:40
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Re: What car?

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You are incorrect in statement that this is what people wanted - in contrary, this was pushed by manufacturers as cheaper alternative. It took even Porsche with 911 few generations for customers to accept electrical steering - it makes worse the whole reason why people buy these cars - the experience driving it.

Why was electric steering introduced? Manufacturers were forced due to efficiencies and environmental issues, just like turbocharging (although what gains are achieved with this are debatable.


Porsche's GT department vowed never to offer a manual in a GT car from the 997 and after public demand, they caved and now you get it in all GT cars, part from the RSs
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  #55  
Old 17.08.2021, 19:30
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Re: What car?

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No the gearing doesn‘t need sorting. Sure it would be be an improvement, but it really isn’t the big deal that the motoring press make out. 1st is a usable gear rather than just one for starting off in.

Signed - An owner
Well that's got to be my strangest groan ever. DL21 care to comment?
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  #56  
Old 17.08.2021, 20:37
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Re: What car?

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Well that's got to be my strangest groan ever. DL21 care to comment?
Just disagree with you. Only 1st and 2nd are usable at the sweet spot when still legal. Makes it a two speed car where you are mostly under powered and don’t even have the sweet song.

Nice car, but there is no denying the gearing is not suited to anything but emissions regulations.
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  #57  
Old 17.08.2021, 20:42
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Re: What car?

The answer to the OP is obviously a GR Yaris anyway.
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  #58  
Old 17.08.2021, 20:48
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Re: What car?

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Just disagree with you. Only 1st and 2nd are usable at the sweet spot when still legal. Makes it a two speed car where you are mostly under powered and don’t even have the sweet song.

Nice car, but there is no denying the gearing is not suited to anything but emissions regulations.
Well everyone’s entitled to their opinions. I hope yours is based on owning one - please do share - rather than based on third party opinions.
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  #59  
Old 17.08.2021, 20:52
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Re: What car?

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Well everyone’s entitled to their opinions. I hope yours is based on owning one - please do share - rather than based on third party opinions.
Yes it is. On both cars. I own or have owned most cars.
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  #60  
Old 17.08.2021, 23:07
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Re: What car?

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Nope its not nostalgia, just much, much better 'fun' while driving. I still have E46, and the smoothness of driving is really incomparable with anything else in the same class regardless of the age. If I want to cut corners sharp on some empty mountain roads, 1.5 tonne car moves nimbly and the limits of the drive are mainly behind steering wheel.
Check your numbers, the F82 M4 is between 1550-1600 kg. Very close to 1.5 metric tonnes and it was manufactured until 2019. Also, there are plenty of tuners out there to make your own CSL/GTS by removing the rear seat, sound insulation, carpets and everything you don't want.

Finally, BMW M are GT cars. The smoothness in driving is a feature of GT cars. Race cars are a bit different: https://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/to...cs-racing.html
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