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  #21  
Old 26.03.2010, 11:22
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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Looks like you are doing your job well. But in practical live you have to catch up a lot.
There are a lot cars out there which have a depreciation of 50% in the first 3 years, so why don`t you save up for one ?
Could you actually be any more patronising?

I am looking at cars that are between 2 and 6 years old, so in absolute terms their worst depreciation is behind them. I am also looking at cars with historically good residuals.

You're right I could save up and in the long run that would be better, but with savings rates so low and lease rates so low (2.9% on some of the cars I'm looking at), I don't see financing as a huge issue. I have a hankering for a car and I could get run over by a bus tomorrow. I'm prepared to take on low cost finance that is well within our budget to have a car that I want now. And we'll still be able to save at the same time

Leasing makes sense for some people, financing makes sense for some people, paying cash makes sense for some people and stealing makes sense for others. I can see all the positives and negatives for each case, but right now leasing makes sense for me. I accept that some people are debt averse. I am not averse to low cost debt.

Can we draw a line under this now please. The answer to my question has been given. I am more than happy to discuss my choice of car, but would prefer this not to turn into an ad hominem attack on my financial choices.
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  #22  
Old 26.03.2010, 12:17
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Re: Car leasing residual value

I don`t agree it would make sense to pay for a leased car when you can avoid it.

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Could you actually be any more patronising?
I can not be sorry for that, why do you want to lease a car when you can`t aford it?

Last edited by vwild1; 31.03.2010 at 23:50. Reason: merged 2 successive posts into 1
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  #23  
Old 26.03.2010, 12:51
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Re: Car leasing residual value

At what point have I said I can't afford it? Can I afford today to pay cash for it? No I can't. Is finance an affordable alternative? Definitely. Am I willing to accept an effective discount rate of 4% to have something now instead of in a couple of years? Yes.

Should I also live in a cardboard box because I can't afford to pay CHF 2m in cash for my apartment?

As I said, I really would rather avoid a discussion on how I spend/save my money when I asked about a contractual issue.
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  #24  
Old 26.03.2010, 12:58
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Re: Car leasing residual value

A few points:

There is Lease Purchase and Lease Hire.

Lease Hire:
Is generally renting a vehicle for a long define period of say 36 months.

Lease Purchase:
You pay a low deposit; say CHF100 and the monthly payments with a balloon payment at the end of the agreement (usually 36 months) if you wish to keep the vehicle or simply return the vehicle. A lot of clients were returning the vehicle because the vehicle was worth less than the balloon payment and some couldn't afford the balloon payment.

Your situation is Lease Purchase.

If you have done higher mileage than you signed/agreed to on the contract; you need to find out how much this will cost you.
Let us say this is CHF3,000

Let us say the balloon payment is CHF20,000

You then need to work out how much your car is worth roughly at the time that you contract runs out. Let us say this is CHF18,000

Then if you gave the car back it would cost you CHF3,000

If you kept the car and paid the balloon payment and then sold the car. you would only loose CHF2,000 (CHF20,000 - 18,000) and would be better off by CHF1,000 (CHF 3,000 - CHF2,000).

You have to consider the hassle and make sure you have a buyer at the sale price (such as part ex) as most people don't sell the car for what they anticipated they would get.
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  #25  
Old 26.03.2010, 13:01
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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I can not be sorry for that, why do you want to lease a car when you can`t aford it?
So if I have a mortgage on my house, does that mean I can afford my house either?


I think your are turning this thread into an attack on the OPs choice of financing his choice of car vs buying an old banger. - in other words taking this off topic.

Financing a car purchase through leasing (which in effect is more like hire purchase) is perfectly normal in Switzerland - which probably explains the number of nice cars around here.

If you want to start a thread about choosing a 10 year old banger over a Porsche 996 Turbo, then lets do so..
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  #26  
Old 26.03.2010, 13:12
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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Should I also live in a cardboard box because I can't afford to pay CHF 2m in cash for my apartment?
I think we can discus this in another thread.

To me cars are just a counsumer artikel which lasts a bit longer than a roll of toilet paper or a dress. But it is the same, you buy it to use it. Like there are better deals on Cars also you can buy toilet paper, clothing or your Rolex watch somewehre much cheaper or even get a much better product for less money.
Also you can go the cheap way, just buying the budget line products and a Swatch instead of the Rolex and save a lot money.
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  #27  
Old 26.03.2010, 13:21
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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I think we can discus this in another thread.

To me cars are just a counsumer artikel which lasts a bit longer than a roll of toilet paper or a dress. But it is the same, you buy it to use it. Like there are better deals on Cars also you can buy toilet paper, clothing or your Rolex watch somewehre much cheaper or even get a much better product for less money.
Also you can go the cheap way, just buying the budget line products and a Swatch instead of the Rolex and save a lot money.
Whilst you are as such right on the toilet paper point, the comfort of the premium brands are worth paying for (but maybe that is too much information)

But it does lead to the point, that with things like houses, cars, watches (actually some watches increase in value) etc., there is always a cheaper option that could probably work. It is the same point - why don't everybody furniture shop in Ikea?

The point is, that some of us don't just want to make do. We want something nice, something better etc. The choices are partly emotional rather than solely rational. But it doesn't make them wrong. To afford something is not necessarily about sitting on a pile of cash - finance allows us to spread cost (and an increased cost) over a certain period.

As long as you always make sure that you don't stretch yourself, don't get to leveraged and can afford the repayments even in a crisis, or you can dispose the asset with positive equity, then it is a pefectly sane way to go.
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  #28  
Old 26.03.2010, 13:28
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Re: Car leasing residual value

Cashboy - agree entirely that this is a lease purchase situation. In 99 times out of 100 I would agree with what you are saying re the balloon, guaranteed future value, Restwert, whatever you want to call it i.e. There's a good chance of getting shafted at the end. The reason I asked the question though is that the gfv seems artifically low (presumably to increase the finance charge) and I wanted to know if I can use it to my advantage.
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  #29  
Old 26.03.2010, 13:33
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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The best thing to do, read some leasing contracts. Far better is never to lease a car, money wise and avoiding unnecessary obligations.
But often if you buy a new car in cash, they give no discount on it, therefore many people go for lease contract beside gradual payment plan.
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  #30  
Old 26.03.2010, 13:34
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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The reason I asked the question though is that the gfv seems artifically low (presumably to increase the finance charge) and I wanted to know if I can use it to my advantage.
It is funny you say that; because in England and the USA when the balloon payment was due, a lot of vehicles were worth less than the balloon payment and therefore a lot of people were logically just returning the vehicle.
This resulted in finance companies being left with lots of unwanted vehicles; auctioning them off; which resulted in the cars falling in value even more (over supply and less demand).
Finance companies have as a result often put a clause in that if the finance company sells the vehicle for less than the balloon payment, you are liable for the difference.
Check your contract to make sure this is not the case for you!
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  #31  
Old 26.03.2010, 13:51
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Re: Car leasing residual value

Again thanks for the advice. Believe me I'm not the kind of person to just sign anything and then come crying that the big nasty man took my ball away. I even read credit card terms and conditions before signing. I will be going through any lease contract with a fine toothcomb!

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So your going for a 911. I might have to drive one of them soon

Not for too long though hopefully. Sell it and make a few quid with luck
Ok so I'm in love. I don't even know why I am bothering going to Bern to look at some Boxsters tomorrow.

I haven't driven it yet, but the car looks nagelneu despite being nearly 6 years old and will have a two full year warranty, MFK, service, polish etc before I get my grubby hands on it.

It's the first car sales room I've been to in CH, but I have to say it was remarkably pleasant and civilised.

I've thought of a reason to go to Bern. A bit of driving in Switzerland practice before I unleash the fury of a 420bhp supercar down the left hand lane of a single carriageway by accident

Last edited by vwild1; 31.03.2010 at 23:49. Reason: merged 2 successive posts into 1
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  #32  
Old 26.03.2010, 19:07
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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Ok so I'm in love. I don't even know why I am bothering going to Bern to look at some Boxsters tomorrow.

I haven't driven it yet, but the car looks nagelneu despite being nearly 6 years old and will have a two full year warranty, MFK, service, polish etc before I get my grubby hands on it.

It's the first car sales room I've been to in CH, but I have to say it was remarkably pleasant and civilised.

I've thought of a reason to go to Bern. A bit of driving in Switzerland practice before I unleash the fury of a 420bhp supercar down the left hand lane of a single carriageway by accident
If I were you I would consider buying a second hand Porsche from Germany as opposed to a new one from a dealer in Switzerland.
Try having a look at www.mobile.de for prices and compare with Switzerland.

I am actually looking at buying Porsches in the USA and importing them into Switzerland to sell as the specs seem pretty close and few modifications to make. I need to find someone in the USA that I can trust and help me with this project.
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Old 26.03.2010, 19:25
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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I think we can discus this in another thread.

To me cars are just a counsumer artikel which lasts a bit longer than a roll of toilet paper or a dress. But it is the same, you buy it to use it. Like there are better deals on Cars also you can buy toilet paper, clothing or your Rolex watch somewehre much cheaper or even get a much better product for less money.
Also you can go the cheap way, just buying the budget line products and a Swatch instead of the Rolex and save a lot money.

Why don't you just crawl off and die ?
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  #34  
Old 26.03.2010, 20:33
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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If I were you I would consider buying a second hand Porsche from Germany as opposed to a new one from a dealer in Switzerland.
Try having a look at www.mobile.de for prices and compare with Switzerland.

I am actually looking at buying Porsches in the USA and importing them into Switzerland to sell as the specs seem pretty close and few modifications to make. I need to find someone in the USA that I can trust and help me with this project.
I'll have another look at it. I've looked before at importing from Germany, but the sums didn't make that much difference last time I looked. Higher cost of financing for a start. I'm looking at a lease at 2.9% here. However the € has depreciated quite a lot since I last looked... Ideal world would be to import a left hooker from the UK, but getting the model you want is difficult and dealers seemed to have cottoned onto the Europeans nipping over for a bargain and are charging a premium, whereas when the £ was strong you could pick up an LHD for buttons.

Importing from the US could be an interesting business proposition, but I imagine there will be a lot of hurdles to jump, one of which being the Swiss mistrust of anything "foreign". I've seen a few US imports trading at a fair discount to Swiss-spec ones. I guess it all depends on how much you can source them for though.
eta: I'm not looking at buying new in CH. I much prefer to let someone else pay the bulk of the depreciation first

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Old 26.03.2010, 20:59
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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I'll have another look at it. I've looked before at importing from Germany, but the sums didn't make that much difference last time I looked. Higher cost of financing for a start. I'm looking at a lease at 2.9% here. However the € has depreciated quite a lot since I last looked... Ideal world would be to import a left hooker from the UK, but getting the model you want is difficult and dealers seemed to have cottoned onto the Europeans nipping over for a bargain and are charging a premium, whereas when the £ was strong you could pick up an LHD for buttons.
Yep, you are too late for the LHD from the UK; prices have become silly, especially the old BMW M3s.

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Importing from the US could be an interesting business proposition, but I imagine there will be a lot of hurdles to jump, one of which being the Swiss mistrust of anything "foreign". I've seen a few US imports trading at a fair discount to Swiss-spec ones. I guess it all depends on how much you can source them for though.
I have been looking into it and it is only worth importing the 911 (997) from USA as same paperwork and shipping costs for expensive model or cheap model. It might be best to physically import the vehicle roll on roll off on a boat coming back from delivering Jaguars to the USA.

The way I look at things is the more hurdles there are the less likely others are to do it and therefore more profit to be made.
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Old 26.03.2010, 21:27
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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Yep, you are too late for the LHD from the UK; prices have become silly, especially the old BMW M3s.
Yes unfortunately. I looked at Munich legends the other day - and prices are mad in the UK at the moment. A shame, I really fancied one of those.
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Old 27.03.2010, 00:53
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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Yes unfortunately. I looked at Munich legends the other day - and prices are mad in the UK at the moment. A shame, I really fancied one of those.
You guys are looking in the wrong places; plenty of LHD bargains in the UK. You just have to be very quick as they go within hours.
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Old 28.03.2010, 17:55
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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If I were you I would consider buying a second hand Porsche from Germany as opposed to a new one from a dealer in Switzerland.
Try having a look at www.mobile.de for prices and compare with Switzerland.
Just had a look at the German Porsche used cars website and there's actually very little in the price believe it or not. They also don't seem to be offering the attractive options that Porsche CH are giving either - 2 years worldwide Porsche warranty (which to be honest is swinging me towards the older 911), the cheap leasing and a free drivers day. There's also the time/distance to consider when viewing too. I don't have a car here and it was enough of a ballache getting a train an hour and a half each way to Bern for a one hour test drive/chat yesterday.
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Old 28.03.2010, 19:44
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Re: Car leasing residual value

Have you been dealing with Markus Anderson at Porsche Zurich? He seems like a nice guy - almost bought a turbot from him a while back, ended up with a new GT3 from the Zug dealership.

I was new in CH almost 3 years ago now - and also couldn't quite get my head around how pleasant the dealership experience is vs UK.

One other advantage that leasing may give you, if you're an expat and your next move could come up unexpectedly, it is much easier to get out of the car - if you look on autoscout for example it does seem to take a while for premium sports cars to shift (although as others have said look at the small print)
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Old 28.03.2010, 20:07
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Re: Car leasing residual value

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Have you been dealing with Markus Anderson at Porsche Zurich? He seems like a nice guy - almost bought a turbot from him a while back, ended up with a new GT3 from the Zug dealership.

I was new in CH almost 3 years ago now - and also couldn't quite get my head around how pleasant the dealership experience is vs UK.

One other advantage that leasing may give you, if you're an expat and your next move could come up unexpectedly, it is much easier to get out of the car - if you look on autoscout for example it does seem to take a while for premium sports cars to shift (although as others have said look at the small print)
Yes that's the chap. To be honest the guy in Bern was nice too and the BMW dealer at Titan in Zurich too. Markus just stands out for me though as a particularly nice guy, no pressure, no spiel etc. The proof of the pudding though will be if there are any warranty issues to deal with.

As an aside I've admired your stable from afar on PH for a while now. I don't think I can find fault with any of your choices.
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