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  #21  
Old 07.02.2011, 18:34
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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even so a swiss fine can not be enforced in the uk.

i know dvla are a push over when it comes to driver details esp as they make £2.50 from each request but joe blogs cant say " i want details" and expect to receive them.
there are certain ways and key phrases to use on the request form that will ensure the details are recieved though!
It's a simple matter to use a debt collection agency.
When it comes to debt, the Swiss are Financial Mounties.

Last edited by Upthehatters2008; 07.02.2011 at 18:54.
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Old 07.02.2011, 19:15
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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even so a swiss fine can not be enforced in the uk.

i know dvla are a push over when it comes to driver details esp as they make £2.50 from each request but joe blogs cant say " i want details" and expect to receive them.
there are certain ways and key phrases to use on the request form that will ensure the details are recieved though!
Even so...you're wrong. I drove in Switzerland and got parking fines sent to my UK address and my car wasn't registered in Switzerland. So, if you're a tourist, or anyone else, do worry because they will find you.
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  #23  
Old 07.02.2011, 20:10
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

even so... i am not wrong.

posting a slip and saying please pay it, is very different from enforcement.

There is no legislation under english,welsh or scottish law that can be used to enforce a swiss motoring fine in the UK, you can choose to pay it or not, they will not come after you if you choose to ignore. If stopped again in CH then that is a different matter, and one that must be considered.

As for debt collector... do you actually know what that is? Its someone that can ask for money, you tell them no and that is all they can do.

I can set myself up as a debt collector right now, as can the 90 years old granny down the road.


But anyway its going off at a slight angle to the original subject.

Last edited by rob1; 07.02.2011 at 21:16.
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Old 07.02.2011, 21:26
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

You are incorrect in some of what you say Rob.

Practice in stadt Zurich is not always to send out bills to non Swiss or German address's, but they can. My car was still on French plates (within the 12 months) and they sent 2 tickets to my French address, accompanied by a rather grumpy gendarme, and the person renting my house had the devil of a job explaining that he wasn't me and that I lived in CH, and it was a pain to sort out and the gendarme would only accept that the fines had in fact been paid locally on reciept of a letter from the police.

More worryingly what they do is the wardens on patrol do number plate checks especially on non Swiss cars for that very reason, and if you have outstanding tickets they can and do (even if it's legally parked) clamp your car until a tow truck is called and will tow it. Then you pay the fines plus an admin fee and for your getting the car released. I know because I narrowly avoided the clamping/towing by the intervention of a kindly Effer I was working for, and they don't accept card payment only cash.

If you are worried go to the stadt police give them your registration, they will find any outstanding tickets on the system, and pay the fine at the station, it won't be much and not worth the potential hassle otherwise.
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Old 08.02.2011, 00:35
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

Your knowledge of UK law is vague. If I claim a debt on you, you can defend it, and you will lose due to photographic evidence. I will then have a judgement against you and call the court bailiffs in. Any debt in the U K is easily enforced. It does nor matter where the claimant is domiciled, the case is heard in the jurisdiction of the defendant. All I need to do is lodge a claim. Your attitude would just land you with extra costs and fees.

Just how would you respond or defend an action by the Swiss authorities against you, lodged in the UK???

This thread assumes guilt, I was caught speeding. You can put forward all the bravado you like, but the simple matter is, and as seen by the courts, is that you lawfully owe someone money with no excuse.

The Swiss authorities could sell the debt on in the UK and you would lose even more defending a lost cause. Once the judgement is obtained, which in this case is a gimme, the bailiffs and debt collectors can enter your home and touch your goods. Despite what you claim, the civil debt is easily enforced.

I would be happy to hear why you think an on overseas claimant cannot lodge a claim against you either directly or via a debt agency.
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Old 08.02.2011, 00:54
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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Your knowledge of UK law is vague. If I claim a debt on you, you can defend it, and you will lose due to photographic evidence. I will then have a judgement against you and call the court bailiffs in. Any debt in the U K is easily enforced. It does nor matter where the claimant is domiciled, the case is heard in the jurisdiction of the defendant. All I need to do is lodge a claim. Your attitude would just land you with extra costs and fees.

Just how would you respond or defend an action by the Swiss authorities against you, lodged in the UK???

This thread assumes guilt, I was caught speeding. You can put forward all the bravado you like, but the simple matter is, and as seen by the courts, is that you lawfully owe someone money with no excuse.

The Swiss authorities could sell the debt on in the UK and you would lose even more defending a lost cause. Once the judgement is obtained, which in this case is a gimme, the bailiffs and debt collectors can enter your home and touch your goods. Despite what you claim, the civil debt is easily enforced.

I would be happy to hear why you think an on overseas claimant cannot lodge a claim against you either directly or via a debt agency.
But to enforce the debt, does the non domiciled defendent have to have assets in the jurisdiction?

Still though, splitting hairs, I wouldn't want to have an outstanding debt judgement hanging over me, especially when the original amounts were not so large to begin with. I agree, if you're guilty, pay.
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Old 08.02.2011, 00:57
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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But to enforce the debt, does the non domiciled defendent have to have assets in the jurisdiction?

Still though, splitting hairs, I wouldn't want to have an outstanding debt judgement hanging over me, especially when the original amounts were not so large to begin with. I agree, if you're guilty, pay.
The defendant is domiciled in the jurisdiction of the court. The case is brought to and heard in the local court of the defendant. In this case, the UK. If the defendant has no assets, then a salary garnish order can be made, else a small deduction from any benefits received, failing that, the court realise they cannot get blood out of a stone. The judgement (CCJ) will remain in force against the defendant for 6 years.
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Old 08.02.2011, 01:04
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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The defendant is domiciled in the jurisdiction of the court. The case is brought to and heard in the local court of the defendant. In this case, the UK. If the defendant has no assets, then a salary garnish order can be made, else a small deduction from any benefits received, failing that, the court realise they cannot get blood out of a stone. The judgement (CCJ) will remain in force against the defendant for 6 years.
Thanks for clarification. I had (mistakenly) thought that we were talking about no longer living in the UK , so the person would have no assets/salary for any enforcement/charging orders etc. But as you say, still a CCJ ...
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Old 08.02.2011, 01:38
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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Thanks for clarification. I had (mistakenly) thought that we were talking about no longer living in the UK , so the person would have no assets/salary for any enforcement/charging orders etc. But as you say, still a CCJ ...
Err, how about a car, for example?

(Hint: "Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?" )
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Old 08.02.2011, 07:27
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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even so a swiss fine can not be enforced in the uk.
The next time you visit Switzerland in the same car, however... but I wonder what would happen if you'd sold the car, and the buyers got stopped at the border for fine non-payment?

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Your knowledge of UK law is vague. If I claim a debt on you, you can defend it, and you will lose due to photographic evidence. I will then have a judgement against you and call the court bailiffs in. Any debt in the U K is easily enforced. It does nor matter where the claimant is domiciled, the case is heard in the jurisdiction of the defendant. All I need to do is lodge a claim. Your attitude would just land you with extra costs and fees.

Just how would you respond or defend an action by the Swiss authorities against you, lodged in the UK???

This thread assumes guilt, I was caught speeding. You can put forward all the bravado you like, but the simple matter is, and as seen by the courts, is that you lawfully owe someone money with no excuse.

The Swiss authorities could sell the debt on in the UK and you would lose even more defending a lost cause. Once the judgement is obtained, which in this case is a gimme, the bailiffs and debt collectors can enter your home and touch your goods. Despite what you claim, the civil debt is easily enforced.

I would be happy to hear why you think an on overseas claimant cannot lodge a claim against you either directly or via a debt agency.
Yes but... please don't tell the Swiss authorities!
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  #31  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:15
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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You are incorrect in some of what you say Rob.

Practice in stadt Zurich is not always to send out bills to non Swiss or German address's, but they can. My car was still on French plates (within the 12 months) and they sent 2 tickets to my French address, accompanied by a rather grumpy gendarme, and the person renting my house had the devil of a job explaining that he wasn't me and that I lived in CH, and it was a pain to sort out and the gendarme would only accept that the fines had in fact been paid locally on reciept of a letter from the police.

More worryingly what they do is the wardens on patrol do number plate checks especially on non Swiss cars for that very reason, and if you have outstanding tickets they can and do (even if it's legally parked) clamp your car until a tow truck is called and will tow it. Then you pay the fines plus an admin fee and for your getting the car released. I know because I narrowly avoided the clamping/towing by the intervention of a kindly Effer I was working for, and they don't accept card payment only cash.

If you are worried go to the stadt police give them your registration, they will find any outstanding tickets on the system, and pay the fine at the station, it won't be much and not worth the potential hassle otherwise.

fr, ch and de share info and have an agreement on motoring violations, i am not surprised a letter arrived, i would be surprised if it had not. On the latter, it is fairly common to see someone with a control sheet of car reg numbers in the morning on the fr/ch border looking for those with outstanding tickets, the ch/de border has ANPR cameras.

Last edited by rob1; 09.02.2011 at 16:04.
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  #32  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:50
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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Your knowledge of UK law is vague. If I claim a debt on you, you can defend it, and you will lose due to photographic evidence. I will then have a judgement against you and call the court bailiffs in..
it doesnt work like that, UK criminal courts do not recognise motoring fines from outside uk. If you claim a debt and claim I owe you money, before any of that happens you need to send an NBA, then instigate civil proceedings, that is under civil contract law, you would have to prove acknowledgement of agreement to a contract, which does not exist and claim of actual losses, as you wont have any you are claiming for a penalty, which as a private individual you are unable to do.

For bailiffs to be involved a judgement has to be granted, which wont based on the above, the defendant would have to refuse to pay within 28 days, it would then have to go back to court for a warrant of execution.

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Any debt in the U K is easily enforced..
there would need to be a judgement, otherwise it is an alleged debt .

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It does nor matter where the claimant is domiciled, the case is heard in the jurisdiction of the defendant. All I need to do is lodge a claim.
its opposite, due to the lugano convention and EEO regulation.

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Just how would you respond or defend an action by the Swiss authorities against you, lodged in the UK???.
i wouldnt need to because english courts do not recognise claims for payment resulting from motoring fines outside of UK, it has been suggested and comes up every now and then, but it has never become law as the ECPTO 1964 regulation which covers this situation has not been accepted by england to my knowledge and is shown by UK not being able to claim payments from other european or non eu drivers.

If you can show me any concluded cases contrary i would like to study it.

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The Swiss authorities could sell the debt on in the UK and you would lose even more defending a lost cause. .
If they are selling the debt then it clearly has not reached judgement so is a non starter.

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Once the judgement is obtained, which in this case is a gimme, the bailiffs and debt collectors can enter your home and touch your goods..

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I would be happy to hear why you think an on overseas claimant cannot lodge a claim against you either directly or via a debt agency.
you keep mentioning debt collectors.. what can a debt collector do?

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If the defendant has no assets, then a salary garnish order can be made.
A salary garnish order does not exist under english law.



but of course if a person was living in CH and had recieved a fine then they should of course pay it.


out of pure personal interest would you pay the tickets issued in uk supermarket car parks or motorway stops?

Last edited by rob1; 09.02.2011 at 16:08.
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  #33  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:01
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

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it doesnt work like that, UK criminal courts do not recognise motoring fines from outside uk. If you claim a debt and claim I owe you money, before any of that happens you need to send an NBA, then instigate civil proceedings, that is under civil contract law, you would have to prove acknowledgement of agreement to a contract, which does not exist and claim of actual losses, as you wont have any you are claiming for a penalty, which as a private individual you are unable to do.

For bailiffs to be involved a judgement has to be granted, which wont based on the above, the defendant would have to refuse to pay within 28 days, it would then have to go back to court for a warrant of execution.

there would need to be a judgement, otherwise it is an alleged debt .


its opposite, due to the lugano convention and EEO regulation.



i wouldnt need to because english courts do not recognise claims for payment resulting from motoring fines outside of UK, it has been suggested and comes up every now and then, but it has never become law as the ECPTO 1964 regulation which covers this situation has not been accepted by england to my knowledge and is shown by UK not being able to claim payments from other european or non eu drivers.

If you can show me any concluded cases contrary i would like to study it.



If they are selling the debt then it clearly has not reached judgement so is a non starter.






you keep mentioning debt collectors.. what can a debt collector do?



A salary garnish order does not exist under english law.



but of course if a person was living in CH and had recieved a fine then they should of course pay it.


out of pure personal interest would you pay the tickets issued in uk supermarket car parks or motorway stops?



Again, you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge bordering on the troll delusional.

We are not talking about criminal law, nor contract law. Neither apply. Try to stay on topic. ECPTO ? You made that up. In a civil court, I do not need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt, merely that my claim is likely. I do not need a contract with you to claim from you.

Garnishee orders (Now called Attachment of earnings order ) do exist in the UK, for example, the CSA use them all the time against banks and employees to get non resident parents to pay child maintenance.

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/personal-fi...f-earnings.htm

Selling the debts and debt collectors are actions that precede the Civil case, once the order is made, it will be Bailiffs and attachment orders.


Further on topic reading for you, about how British Motorists can be pursued accross the border for speeding offences.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-abroad.html


The simple matter is, if the Swiss authorities wanted to chase up a a debt in a UK court, they could. You have failed to prove why they couldn't. The easiest way is for them to sell on debt and have a UK debt agency pursue you through the courts. They may even have local agencies with offices in the UK.

If you think the Swiss are barred for some reason, from issuing a claim in a UK court either directly or via an agency, discuss.

Perhaps you can quote some case law as to why you think this is a criminal matter or is dealt with under contract law ?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-Overseas-Debt


Following agreements are in place.

Lugano Convention

The Lugano Convention

Covers member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA)

Including Iceland Liechtenstein Norway Switzerland

Countries covered by the regulation and convention will enforce judgments
made in other countries

• Procedure for this follows the same principals for enforcement in the uk
• The creditor needs to establish which court they must register the uk judgment before it can be enforced. Embassies may be able to provide this info.


...and finally, to prove my point beyond a doubt.

http://www.pinsentmasons.com/PDF/Enf...sinEngland.pdf

All they need is a judgement against you in a SWISS court. That shouldn't be too hard should it ?
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  #34  
Old 10.02.2011, 13:53
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Re: Caught speeding on UK plates - how to pay locally ?

uuuurgggggg replies got lost somehow... ill be along at some stage when i write it out again.
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