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Old 02.07.2020, 17:41
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Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

Can anyone tell me who would decide a dispute between a Customer (me) and the SBB (the state train operator)? Would I have to have my day in Court? If so then which Court? OR is there some sort of independent administrative consumer tribunal who has jurisdiction over small disputes? If anyone has experience or administrative / legal knowledge, I would very much appreciate hearing about it. The SBB wants 100CHF out of me for unfolding my folding bike 1 Min before arrival at Zurich Oerlikon in an EMPTY TRAIN (Corona Time). My Argument: The SBB do not clearly publish their Rules re the unfolding folding bikes (nothing on their website about it), so common sense should prevail and a (very good) customer should not be fined 100CHF for unfolding a bike on an empty train 1 min before arrival at the exit station. After multiple rounds of Email Argument, their "customer dialogue" guy is sticking to his guns - "we have our rules, if you don't know them, thats your problem". I would take the matter higher if it was cheap (sub 20CHF). But nuttin is cheap in Swissy!! If nothing else, I suppose i can ask the guy i am dealing with at the SBB to give me the name of his Boss. Or do they have a Dispute Resolution Department in Zurich HB?!?!
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Old 02.07.2020, 17:57
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

It’s fairly clear here - and in English
https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/trav...-with-you.html
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Old 02.07.2020, 18:24
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

My guess is that by unfolding the bike, you are technically no longer carrying it as hand luggage and therefore you should have a valid bicycle ticket. So the ticket isn't for "unfolding", but for not having a bicycle ticket. What specific violation does the ticket say you committed?

I travel through the Bern station a lot, and I've never seen anyone unfold the bike while on the train, they always do it after stepping off.

As for the website posted by nickatbasel, I couldn't get the link for "taking a bicycle as hand baggage" to work, but i googled and found this:
Quote:
Bikes as hand baggage

Bikes can be placed in a bag and transported as hand baggage.

The front wheel must be removed and placed in the carry bag together with the bike.

It is free to transport bikes as hand baggage.
If your bike is unfolded and ready to go, it's not in a bag as hand baggage.

To appeal you can probably go to the SBB office and ask to pay an administrative fine instead if it's your first offense. But here you're coming across as angry and that won't suit you well. Get your temper in check before you go, and don't act entitled.
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Old 02.07.2020, 18:27
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

I would add about CHF 20 to the fine for calling Switzerland "Swissy". Presumably you did not have a ticket for the bike?

Why unfold it while still on the train, potentially blocking the exit?

The rules apply at all times and to everyone, even if some cyclists seem to believe otherwise.
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Old 02.07.2020, 18:31
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

This could be an early Friday thread.
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Old 02.07.2020, 20:38
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

This is a bit like complaining about a parking fine when the parking lot wasn't full...

You just got unlucky. There must be some appeal procedure but I doubt you'll get anywhere.
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Old 02.07.2020, 21:20
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

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As for the website posted by nickatbasel, ...
here ist says:
"For hygiene reasons, folding bikes must be folded up and packed away."

OP, I think you will have no success trying to argue that you were not in the wrong.

If, however, you wish to plead for lenience, perhaps because this is a first offence, and perhaps because it wasn't rush-hour (I presume, since the carriage was empty), you may succeed if you tread very, very lightly, and apologise for not having first done the requisite research, to understand the rules.

Don't be put off the combination train and bicycle, though, as it's a wonderful way to see Switzerland, so I hope you still have many good trips ahead of you.
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Old 03.07.2020, 08:35
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

@OP: Switzerland is not a litigious society. My suggestion would be to pay up the Fr. 100 and consider it a lesson learnt. It's not too much money, but ANY time and money spent in disputing what was clearly your fault will be a waste.
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Old 03.07.2020, 10:27
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

I am sorry about what happened to you, but I think that you 'unintentionally' transported a bike without a ticket when you unfolded your foldable bike before the train stopped. I don't think the ticket inspectors (and also not the transportation rules) take into account...
- that you rode most of the time with the bike folded.
- that there was space on the train as the train was empty
- that you weren't interfering with other passengers
- that you intended to follow the rules and didn't intend to transport your bike unfolded.

The inspectors have some personal descrection to decide if they will fine someone or not and obviously they didn't use that descretion with you.

You've already been in touch with the SBB customer service and they haven't agreed with your case. My advice would be to give this up and pay the fine.

If you don't want to do this, a possible next contact person would be the Ombudsman for public transportation in Switzerland. Their contact information is here.
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Old 03.07.2020, 11:00
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

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Can anyone tell me who would decide a dispute between a Customer (me) and the SBB (the state train operator)? Would I have to have my day in Court? If so then which Court? OR is there some sort of independent administrative consumer tribunal who has jurisdiction over small disputes? If anyone has experience or administrative / legal knowledge, I would very much appreciate hearing about it. The SBB wants 100CHF out of me for unfolding my folding bike 1 Min before arrival at Zurich Oerlikon in an EMPTY TRAIN (Corona Time). My Argument: The SBB do not clearly publish their Rules re the unfolding folding bikes (nothing on their website about it), so common sense should prevail and a (very good) customer should not be fined 100CHF for unfolding a bike on an empty train 1 min before arrival at the exit station. After multiple rounds of Email Argument, their "customer dialogue" guy is sticking to his guns - "we have our rules, if you don't know them, thats your problem". I would take the matter higher if it was cheap (sub 20CHF). But nuttin is cheap in Swissy!! If nothing else, I suppose i can ask the guy i am dealing with at the SBB to give me the name of his Boss. Or do they have a Dispute Resolution Department in Zurich HB?!?!
I'm not sure about this, perhaps others know more. If I remember well SBB/CFF information in English is "just informative" but not legally binding. Maybe they'll just tell the rules are in DE/FR/IT. Let's look at the rules in French:

https://www.sbb.ch/fr/horaire/consei...-son-velo.html



So, the title "vélos in bagage à main" means bikes taken as hand luggage implying you don't pay a ticket for them. The requirement is the one in red: for hygiene reasons, the folding bikes must be folded and packed in a bag. So, it's not only about unfolding a bike in an empty train, also about a bike not being packed inside a bag. Did the SBB mentioned this in the multiple rounds of emails?

Unfortunately, the SBB site for bike transport in English says: For hygiene reasons, folding bikes must be folded up and packed away. The bag was lost in translation. And common sense says bikes have mud, oil, and grease, not good for keeping a train clean https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/trav...-with-you.html

Any chance to use the argument The SBB do not clearly publish their Rules re the unfolding folding bikes relies on the assumption that they are forced to do a proper translation from the 3 official languages to English. Good luck.
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Old 03.07.2020, 11:26
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

The relevant court could be the district court where you have been caught (if it is criminal law) or the district court of your place of residence or Bern (if it is civil law). Bern because that is where the SBB headquarter is located.

Normally that would be a civil law matter as it is a dispute between a customer and a company. Which also means it would first go through a justice of peace. However there are special laws and regulations for transport companies, specially rail companies.

According this a a dispute about the SBB ticket price is civil law mater:
https://www.schillerlegal.ch/files/s...etter_2012.pdf

Civil law court cases are mostly done by mail. It goes back and forth a few time and in the end the judge will decided based on evidence and arguments presented.

Independent arbitration / Ombudman
https://www.voev.ch/de/Service/Ombudsstelle-oV

Relevant regulations are:
Tarif 600, Chapter 6, 7, and 12
https://www.allianceswisspass.ch/de/...&download=2666

Personenbeförderungsgesetz
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...345/index.html

Verordnung über die Personenbeförderung
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...712/index.html

last but not least Art. 150 Swiss Criminal Code
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a150

My opinion: You are in the wrong and you would lose your case. The SBB stance might be nitpicking, but the rules are clear: Only a folded bike can be transported free of charge. Your bike was not folded, nor dissembled (front wheel removed), nor in a bag, you could not show a valid ticket for the bike nor did had one, ergo the CHF 100 surcharge is correct.
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Old 03.07.2020, 11:33
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

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I
Unfortunately, the SBB site for bike transport in English says: For hygiene reasons, folding bikes must be folded up and packed away. The bag was lost in translation. And common sense says bikes have mud, oil, and grease, not good for keeping a train clean https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/trav...-with-you.html

Any chance to use the argument The SBB do not clearly publish their Rules re the unfolding folding bikes relies on the assumption that they are forced to do a proper translation from the 3 official languages to English. Good luck.
The German wording in the T600, which is the official price list, is also not that clear. its says
Als Handgepäck, das im Fahrzeug mitgenommen werden darf [...]
- Zusammengeklappte oder demontierte Velos in Tragetasche

This could mean either just folded bikes, and dissembled bikes (front wheel removed) in bags. OR folded bikes in bag and and dissembled bikes (front wheel removed) in bags.

On the other hand https://www.sbb.ch/de/fahrplan/reise...mit-ihnen.html is clear. It must be folded and in the bag.

However,m for the previous mentioned case this is all not relevant. Not the missing bag, but the non-folding is the issue.
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Old 03.07.2020, 11:36
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

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Unfortunately, the SBB site for bike transport in English says: For hygiene reasons, folding bikes must be folded up and packed away. The bag was lost in translation. And common sense says bikes have mud, oil, and grease, not good for keeping a train clean https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/trav...-with-you.html

Any chance to use the argument The SBB do not clearly publish their Rules re the unfolding folding bikes relies on the assumption that they are forced to do a proper translation from the 3 official languages to English. Good luck.
It also says on the very top of the list: "You can take your bicycle on the train with you free of charge as hand luggage if you pack it into a transport bag." or in French "Vous pouvez emporter gratuitement votre vélo à bord du train au même titre qu’un bagage à main, à condition toutefois qu’il soit placé dans une housse."
"
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Old 03.07.2020, 11:41
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

Do people who unload their dog from their bag which preparing to leave the tram get fined? (I expect so).
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Old 03.07.2020, 12:14
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

I think you'll find that as a cyclist you are completely above the law. If they persist with this nonsense I suggest the European Court of Human Rights .
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Old 03.07.2020, 12:28
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

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I think you'll find that as a cyclist you are completely above the law. If they persist with this nonsense I suggest the European Court of Human Rights .
Thank you! This make me laugh out loud.
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Old 03.07.2020, 12:53
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I would add about CHF 20 to the fine for calling Switzerland "Swissy". Presumably you did not have a ticket for the bike?

Why unfold it while still on the train, potentially blocking the exit?

The rules apply at all times and to everyone, even if some cyclists seem to believe otherwise.
Man i call Swissys Swissys all the time... at 20CHF a pop, i am gonna be broke.

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The relevant court could be the district court where you have been caught (if it is criminal law) or the district court of your place of residence or Bern (if it is civil law). Bern because that is where the SBB headquarter is located.

Normally that would be a civil law matter as it is a dispute between a customer and a company. Which also means it would first go through a justice of peace. However there are special laws and regulations for transport companies, specially rail companies.

According this a a dispute about the SBB ticket price is civil law mater:
https://www.schillerlegal.ch/files/s...etter_2012.pdf

Civil law court cases are mostly done by mail. It goes back and forth a few time and in the end the judge will decided based on evidence and arguments presented.

Independent arbitration / Ombudman
https://www.voev.ch/de/Service/Ombudsstelle-oV

Relevant regulations are:
Tarif 600, Chapter 6, 7, and 12
https://www.allianceswisspass.ch/de/...&download=2666

Personenbeförderungsgesetz
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...345/index.html

Verordnung über die Personenbeförderung
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...712/index.html

last but not least Art. 150 Swiss Criminal Code
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a150

My opinion: You are in the wrong and you would lose your case. The SBB stance might be nitpicking, but the rules are clear: Only a folded bike can be transported free of charge. Your bike was not folded, nor dissembled (front wheel removed), nor in a bag, you could not show a valid ticket for the bike nor did had one, ergo the CHF 100 surcharge is correct.
thank you very much for the detailed effort of your response. very much appreciated. also appreciated all the other people who made the effort to respond (including the ones taking the piss at first world problems...)

Last edited by 3Wishes; 03.07.2020 at 13:49. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 03.07.2020, 13:20
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

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Man i call Swissys Swissys all the time... at 20CHF a pop, i am gonna be broke.
I do it too. Shall we set up a fund?
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Old 03.07.2020, 14:07
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

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I do it too. Shall we set up a fund?
Best make it a literacy fund. The Germans may say "Babys" but come on, there are standards.
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Old 03.07.2020, 14:27
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Re: Fold Up Bike on an SBB S Bahn

There's a woman takes a folding bike on the train I sometimes catch.
She never removes the front wheel, just folds it (Brompton, so simple) and has some sort of poncho with a long velcro strap that drops down from beneath the saddle to imitate a bag, saddle stays exposed.
Works fine, not even that messy in the rain.

Personally I'm not a cheapskate and pay cfh240 (halb tax) a year to take the fullsize bike, which presents it's own difficulties on a busy train.
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