Torrent Download - legal or not - Page 2

#21 12.07.2016, 13:39

	Quote:	Aeneas
	In short, as has been already answered, to download content such as music or movies is legal, however to upload it is illegal. As BitTorrent is a P2P protocol, this means you are sharing content - that is both uploading and downloading. So technically, no, it is illegal. .

Nope. You can configure the client to upload nada, or you can use something like Bitthief which does the 'hard' work for you. Made in CH too.

Th3Alchemist · #22 24.10.2016, 18:26

Hi! I just recieved this E-Mail from my ISP provider here in Zug:

	Quote:
	Sehr geehrter (((removed))) Wir senden Ihnen zur Kenntnisnahme das untenstehende Email, welches wir am 24.10.2016 von Paramount Pictures Corporation erhalten haben. Aus rechtlicher Sicht besteht für uns kein Handlungsbedarf. Wir hoffen, Ihnen damit zu dienen. Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Freundliche Grüsse (((removed))) __________________________________________________ __________________ WWZ Telekom AG Chollerstrasse 24 CH-6301 Zug Tel +41 41 748 46 46 Kundenkontakt-Center Telekom FAX +41 41 748 47 47 E-Mail info@wwz.ch Kundenservice E-Mail support@wwz.ch Telekomsupport Web wwz.ch / quickline.ch Die WWZ-Gruppe: WWZ AG, WWZ Energie AG, WWZ Netze AG, WWZ Telekom AG Alle Angaben in diesem E-Mail erfolgen ohne Gewähr. Alle Rechte sind vorbehalten. __________________________________________________ __________________ END OF MESSAGE (Dies ist eine automatisch erstellte Antwort und kann dadurch mehrfach gesendet werden) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Notice ID: (((removed))) Notice Date: (((removed))) WWZ Telekom AG Dear Sir or Madam: We are contacting you on behalf of Paramount Pictures Corporation (Paramount). Under penalty of perjury, I assert that IP-Echelon Pty. Ltd., (IP-Echelon) is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the exclusive copyrights that are alleged to be infringed herein. IP-Echelon has become aware that the below IP addresses have been using your service for distributing video files, which contain infringing video content that is exclusively owned by Paramount. IP-Echelon has a good faith belief that the Paramount video content that is described in the below report has not been authorized for sharing or distribution by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law. I also assert that the information contained in this notice is accurate to the best of our knowledge. We are requesting your immediate assistance in removing and disabling access to the infringing material from your network. We also ask that you ensure the user and/or IP address owner refrains from future use and sharing of Paramount materials and property. In complying with this notice, WWZ Telekom AG should not destroy any evidence, which may be relevant in a lawsuit, relating to the infringement alleged, including all associated electronic documents and data relating to the presence of infringing items on your network, which shall be preserved while disabling public access, irrespective of any document retention or corporate policy to the contrary. Please note that this letter is not intended as a full statement of the facts; and does not constitute a waiver of any rights to recover damages, incurred by virtue of any unauthorized or infringing activities, occurring on your network. All such rights, as well as claims for other relief, are expressly reserved. Should you need to contact me, I may be reached at the following address: Adrian Leatherland On behalf of IP-Echelon as an agent for Paramount Address: 6715 Hollywood Blvd, Los Angeles, 90028, United States Email: p2p@copyright.ip-echelon.com Evidentiary Information: Protocol: BITTORRENT Infringed Work: (((removed))) Infringing FileName: (((removed))) Infringing FileSize: (((removed))) Infringer's IP Address: (((removed))) Infringer's Port: (((removed))) Initial Infringement Timestamp: (((removed))) This email (including any attachments) is for its intended-recipient's use only. This email may contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you received this email in error, please immediately advise the sender by replying to this email and then delete this message from your system.

Treverus · #23 24.10.2016, 18:39

	Quote:	Th3Alchemist

What's there to be confused? Your ISP said "we don't see any reason to take any actions"... which translates to "screw them, this is Switzerland!"

Aeneas · #24 24.10.2016, 18:39

Your ISP is just covering their collective asses. They got the letter from a company paid by a media company to chase down, bully or sue potential pirates because they were able to see that some of their IPs were probably torrenting copyrighted files and they were warned to do something about it.

They passed on a copy of this, most likely, to all of their customers.

Now they have done something about it and don't feel they need to do anything more. Case closed.

Th3Alchemist · #25 24.10.2016, 18:44

	Quote:	Treverus
	What's there to be confused? Your ISP said "we don't see any reason to take any actions"... which translates to "screw them, this is Switzerland!"

Yes I realized that. I've removed some of the details on the letter. This download happend this weekend I mean just wow that was a fast response coming from overseas how did they track this?

Thank god I never upload any content.

bigblue2 · #26 24.10.2016, 18:48

what film was it?

unless the law has changed recently its a moot point, as a swiss isp isn't allowed to give your details over to them.

Treverus · #27 24.10.2016, 18:56

	Quote:	Th3Alchemist
	how did they track this?

They typically don't give interviews on that bit... but: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/d...29-1mw93k.html

Slaphead · #28 24.10.2016, 19:20

	Quote:	Th3Alchemist
	Yes I realized that. I've removed some of the details on the letter. This download happend this weekend I mean just wow that was a fast response coming from overseas how did they track this? Thank god I never upload any content.

Well if you torrent then you almost certainly are uploading at the same time you're downloading. That's how torrents work.

It's true that uploading is illegal while downloading is legal so torrenting is a grey area, and it's a grey area based on this:-

Downloading is legal based on the premise that it's impossible to know what you're downloading until you've downloaded it. With torrenting, as long as you're not seeding a fully downloaded file, it is again impossible to know what you're uploading until you have fully downloaded the file. So, as long as you kill the torrent as soon as is practical after download you should theoretically be in the clear. IANAL and this is just my interpretation, so YMMV.

The truth is that Swiss ISPs couldn't give a toss really as, due to privacy laws, they can't legally hand over your details to anyone other than the Swiss legal authorities, and then it would need to be something a lot more serious than the odd download/upload.

So far I'm not aware of anybody who's been prosecuted, or for that matter hassled by a "copyright protection company", in Switzerland for basic torrenting - although I'm prepared to be corrected on that.

Landers · #29 24.10.2016, 20:26

There's a whole industry involved in monitoring torrent downloads and sending out speculative letters to try to get some money. Then there's a whole industry involved in offering to defend these claims. We got caught out by this by (illegally) downloading one movie in Germany. I always heard in Switzerland there's some kind of "piracy tax" included in everyone's internet fees but I don't know how true that is. In Germany, the ISPs are supposed to only give out subscriber information if there's a strong case for criminal activity but it seems they give the details to anyone who asks. I'm told in Switzerland they don't give out the details so easily.

Jonesy · #30 24.10.2016, 20:40

	Quote:	Landers
	There's a whole industry involved in monitoring torrent downloads and sending out speculative letters to try to get some money. Then there's a whole industry involved in offering to defend these claims. We got caught out by this by (illegally) downloading one movie in Germany. I always heard in Switzerland there's some kind of "piracy tax" included in everyone's internet fees but I don't know how true that is. In Germany, the ISPs are supposed to only give out subscriber information if there's a strong case for criminal activity but it seems they give the details to anyone who asks. I'm told in Switzerland they don't give out the details so easily.

Yes, I've heard from germans receiving a fine of 1000€ for downloading a couple of mp3 files.

Anyway I think that these american organizations control more the new films. If you download some old films (2+ years old) once in a while it's not going to be a problem.

Internet is so complicated to control... you have the streaming sites (with no upload), or you have programs like soulseek for music with no upload if you don't want.

Landers · #31 24.10.2016, 20:44

	Quote:	Jonesy
	Yes, I've heard from germans receiving a fine of 1000€ for downloading a couple of mp3 files.

It's not a fine - it's hush money - pay them the money and they won't report you to the authorities.

Aeneas · #32 25.10.2016, 08:46

	Quote:	Th3Alchemist
	This download happend this weekend I mean just wow that was a fast response coming from overseas how did they track this?

It would be easy to do so.

All they need to do is torrent one of their client's movies and see who connects. From that they would get a list of IP's, which in turn they could easily look up to give them an owner (typically an ISP) and contact details, from which all they need to do is send an email. The whole thing could be automated and in real time, in theory.

They're probably monitoring IP's for the larger offenders - there's quite a few companies where the twenty-something sysadmin (and only person with any IT knowledge there) is quietly running a bit torrent server on their fixed IP. Easy to find and often easy to go after legally.

Corbets · #33 25.10.2016, 09:27

	Quote:	Aeneas
	It would be easy to do so. All they need to do is torrent one of their client's movies and see who connects. From that they would get a list of IP's, which in turn they could easily look up to give them an owner (typically an ISP) and contact details, from which all they need to do is send an email. The whole thing could be automated and in real time, in theory. They're probably monitoring IP's for the larger offenders - there's quite a few companies where the twenty-something sysadmin (and only person with any IT knowledge there) is quietly running a bit torrent server on their fixed IP. Easy to find and often easy to go after legally.

The first part isn't theoretical - it's exactly what they do, purely automated.

As for the larger offenders, that's sadly not the case. There are plenty of documented cases (including friends of mine in the states) where people have been "busted" for a one-off offense.

Aeneas · #34 25.10.2016, 10:11

	Quote:	Corbets
	The first part isn't theoretical - it's exactly what they do, purely automated.

I was speculating more than speaking theoretically (i.e. what I would do if I were them).

Another approach would be to share poisoned files, so that they ruin the downloads they're shared with. Apparently this approach has not worked well, simply because there are too many people out there downloading - they simply cannot stop it from a technical point of view.

	Quote:
	As for the larger offenders, that's sadly not the case. There are plenty of documented cases (including friends of mine in the states) where people have been "busted" for a one-off offense.

I'd imagine their policy is to try and find the big offenders, but to go after a token small one on a regular basis to make an example of them, so as to scare off others.

Th3Alchemist · #35 25.10.2016, 10:27

	Quote:	Aeneas
	I was speculating more than speaking theoretically (i.e. what I would do if I were them). Another approach would be to share poisoned files, so that they ruin the downloads they're shared with. Apparently this approach has not worked well, simply because there are too many people out there downloading - they simply cannot stop it from a technical point of view.

Unless they are the original provider of a file, the bittorrent protocol doesn't allow that. This because this protocil "divides" the files in parts and after each download there's a integrity verification (SHA-1 checksum). If only a bit of this was modified, the verification fails and is deleted by the protocol.

I believe the other approach is more likeley, it's like the DEA doing drug deals to identify offenders...

drremobond007 · #36 08.09.2019, 18:17

Hello everybody

Does anybody has latest info. if still downloading through torrent legal or not?
(I would like to download a latest Bollywood movie)
Thanks in advance

R

yacek · #37 09.09.2019, 00:13

	Quote:	drremobond007
	Does anybody has latest info. if still downloading through torrent legal or not? (I would like to download a latest Bollywood movie)

Watching it will be enough of a punishment already :-)

Phil_MCR · #38 09.09.2019, 10:26

	Quote:	Corbets
	The first part isn't theoretical - it's exactly what they do, purely automated. As for the larger offenders, that's sadly not the case. There are plenty of documented cases (including friends of mine in the states) where people have been "busted" for a one-off offense.

I confirm this. A friend of mine runs such a business. Typically you download only to identify the uploaders (and minimize legal issues for yourself).

He works with law firms to provide details and gets a split of the settlement fees. Key is preserving the chain of evidence so it works in court. The only thing needed from the ISP is confirmation of the person to link to the IP (technically there are ways also to discover this, but may not be legal/withstand legal attack in court).

We were also able to look up IPs of people we know see what stuff they'd been sharing...

mike_n · #39 09.09.2019, 11:07

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	I confirm this. A friend of mine runs such a business. Typically you download only to identify the uploaders (and minimize legal issues for yourself). He works with law firms to provide details and gets a split of the settlement fees. Key is preserving the chain of evidence so it works in court. The only thing needed from the ISP is confirmation of the person to link to the IP (technically there are ways also to discover this, but may not be legal/withstand legal attack in court). We were also able to look up IPs of people we know see what stuff they'd been sharing...

A VPN would nullify all these efforts and this only for a couple of bucks a month.

Even without a VPN I think it is not so easy to prove that someone uploaded something.
- you need to get the IP address from the ISP provider. The ISP provider might not be willing to do it or able to do it. IP addresses change in time so the provider needs logs that might go quite some time back into the past.
- even if you get the IP address, this doesn't say anything. An IP address can be easily spoofed, this is trivial.
So you hardly get something valid in court, the whole business only works if you manage to scare the potential victims and make them pay before you go to court.

This being said I would stay with the VPN to get the ISP out of the loop.

Phil_MCR · #40 09.09.2019, 12:18

	Quote:	mike_n
	A VPN would nullify all these efforts and this only for a couple of bucks a month. Even without a VPN I think it is not so easy to prove that someone uploaded something. - you need to get the IP address from the ISP provider. The ISP provider might not be willing to do it or able to do it. IP addresses change in time so the provider needs logs that might go quite some time back into the past. - even if you get the IP address, this doesn't say anything. An IP address can be easily spoofed, this is trivial. So you hardly get something valid in court, the whole business only works if you manage to scare the potential victims and make them pay before you go to court. This being said I would stay with the VPN to get the ISP out of the loop.

who's the vpn provider? maybe you pick one in the US more than happy to respond to legal requests to give up your name.

or maybe one of the trojan vpns who also get a commission on successful lawsuits...