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Old 15.02.2017, 10:02
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Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

Hi guys,

I recently bought a new high-end gaming laptop and have read some quite frankly baffling information saying that if a user upgrades the hard drives that they void their warranty. And considering it only came with 256GB I NEED to install a 1TB drive, and there was no purchase option for this anyway.

To purposefully design a large gaming laptop so these basic things cannot be replaced seems ludicrous, and I was under the impression that it was a buyer's legal right in the EU and related countries to be able to upgrade these essentials themselves.

Can anyone please confirm this, and do you have any links to hand back it up?

Cheers,

Rich.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:07
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

Better to figure this out before buying the laptop.
I don't think there is legislation for upgrading a computer yourself. It also doesn't make sense at all.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:22
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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Better to figure this out before buying the laptop.
I have never seen or heard of a high-end gaming laptop where the hard drive could not be upgraded (and I have had a few in my time), so I didn't for a moment even consider it as a potential hurdle as it is almost the first thing people do when you buy a high-end gaming laptop.

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I don't think there is legislation for upgrading a computer yourself. It also doesn't make sense at all.
Of course it makes sense for a consumer to be able to have the right to upgrade them when it is physically possible to do so. HDD's are incredibly basic things to upgrade, and they are also a common point of failure. This laptop also has multiple HD's.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:25
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

Depends on what "warranty" is.

Legal right according to Art. 197 and Art. 210 of Swiss Code of Obligations which is between you as a buyer and the SELLER of the product,

OR

A voluntary commitmend and service which is offerered by the MANUFACTURER of the product?

For the later the manufacturer can set any terms and conditions as they wish, including that you have to deliver the product in person wearing a tutu. For the former AFAIK the seller cannot claim that the warranty is void. But if in the course of repair it becomes clear that the fault was caused by the installation of 3rd party product or misshandling by the costumer there is no obligation for the seller to cover the repair cost or replacement.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:26
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

I thought this was a newbie thread!!

Typically warranties exist to provide a consumer protection against a manufacturing defect. If a component is swapped and then damage caused to another component should the warranty cover the damaged component?

Apply that to computers, washing machines, cars etc etc etc.

Your own skills in improving the purchased item may be a match for the manufacturers and you may insure that in your case there is no subsequent impact HOWEVER your average purchaser may not be so adept.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:31
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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Depends on what "warranty" is.

Legal right according to Art. 197 and Art. 210 of Swiss Code of Obligations which is between you as a buyer and the SELLER of the product,

OR

A voluntary commitmend and service which is offerered by the MANUFACTURER of the product?

For the later the manufacturer can set any terms and conditions as they wish, including that you have to deliver the product in person wearing a tutu. For the former AFAIK the seller cannot claim that the warranty is void. But if in the course of repair it becomes clear that the fault was caused by the installation of 3rd party product or misshandling by the costumer there is no obligation for the seller to cover the repair cost or replacement.
Ok, interesting.

So if I replace the HDD and there is no damage caused by that, and the screen later develops a fault, then they couldn't claim my warranty was void if it was clear that my upgrade of the HDD did not cause said screen fault?

I can upgrade and replace the HD without HP knowing I did it (as far as I know there are no visible 'seals', but I am interested in the technicalities of it.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:31
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

All on the manufacturer's terms, there is no common policy.

Asus

Any tampering, repair or modification by unauthorized personnel voids the warranty, so you cannot upgrade, enhance or fix any part of your Asus machine without it nullifying your warranty.

Dell

Hard drive and RAM can be upgraded without voiding the warranty, but damage to the system incurred during the upgrade process is not covered. Also, your warranty will not cover any new parts you add. Upgrading the video card, CPU and most other components will void the warranty.

...
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:40
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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Hard drive and RAM can be upgraded without voiding the warranty, but damage to the system incurred during the upgrade process is not covered.
This is what I (wrongly, clearly) assumed based on my previous experience was standard practise, because RAM/HDD are such fundamental things to need more capacity of.

Also, ASUS are not non-upgradeable, I had the model specified in this thread and there was no issue upgrading both RAM and HDD. https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...grade-question

It appears HP have purposefully hidden the HDD behind the same casing used to house the battery and other sensitive components, which is why they have stated unscrewing it will nullify the warranty. Sneaky bastards.

Oh well, I will still do it slowly and carefully, but that is certainly damn annoying. Alternatively, I will see if I can find a HP-authorized person (like Media Markt or similar) to do it for me.

This really is the first and only high-end gaming notebook (a desktop replacement) that I have seen with this limitation, and while it's not a deal-breaker and I am sure I can get around it, it's damn annoying in principle.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:42
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

Die Fälle, in denen die Garantie ausgeschlossen ist, müssen in klarer Weise in den Allgemeinen Geschäftsbedingungen aufgeführt werden. Macht der Verkäufer eine unsachgemässe Benutzung oder einen Fehler des Benutzers geltend, muss er seine Behauptung auf einen technischen Bericht abstützen. Der Beweis eines Mangels obliegt dem Käufer. Macht der Verkäufer eine unsachgemässe Benutzung oder einen Fehler des Benutzers geltend, muss der Käufer das Gegenteil beweisen. Dafür muss man gegebenenfalls auf eine technische Expertise des Gegenstandes zurückgreifen.

(https://www.konsum.admin.ch/bfk/de/h...telle/faq.html point 11)

Basically - the general T&C must be clear (so probably sticking a "warranty void" label on the screws isn't enough!).

And - if they claim "improper use" or other technical grounds, they have to have a reason and can be overruled by an independent technical report.

But - the buyer has to provide the technical report if the seller makes this claim.

So - the rights are with you if you do the upgrade properly and don't break anything else, but proving it is likely to be a PITA. As usual, it would come down to how good their customer service is.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:43
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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Ok, interesting.

So if I replace the HDD and there is no damage caused by that, and the screen later develops a fault, then they couldn't claim my warranty was void if it was clear that my upgrade of the HDD did not cause said screen fault?

I can upgrade and replace the HD without HP knowing I did it (as far as I know there are no visible 'seals', but I am interested in the technicalities of it.
As said id depends on which kind of warranty you are talking about.

The legal one set by law which is between you and the SELLER. Seller: the person or store which sold the product to you.

Or the one from the MANUFACTURER which is just a nice-to-have, with zero legal requirements do even exists, or to cover anything else apart from that the product will not convert into literal a black hole.

In your case. If HP is the maufacturer and not the seller (Sometimes manufacturer is also the seller. But most of the times seller and manufacturer are two different entities.) as well they can deny or claim the warranty to be void according to their very own warranty terms and conditions. In this case you have to read the conditions to find out what is covered and what is not covered.

If it is not covered by the manufacturer warranty go to the seller and claim your legal rights according the code of obbligations.

If HP is seller AND manufacturer also read the manufacturer warranty. If it goes beyond legal obligations claim on manufacturer warranty, if it is bellow legal obligations claim on the warranty according code of obligations.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:47
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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Die Fälle, in denen die Garantie ausgeschlossen ist, müssen in klarer Weise in den Allgemeinen Geschäftsbedingungen aufgeführt werden. Macht der Verkäufer eine unsachgemässe Benutzung oder einen Fehler des Benutzers geltend, muss er seine Behauptung auf einen technischen Bericht abstützen. Der Beweis eines Mangels obliegt dem Käufer. Macht der Verkäufer eine unsachgemässe Benutzung oder einen Fehler des Benutzers geltend, muss der Käufer das Gegenteil beweisen. Dafür muss man gegebenenfalls auf eine technische Expertise des Gegenstandes zurückgreifen.

(https://www.konsum.admin.ch/bfk/de/h...telle/faq.html point 11)

Basically - the general T&C must be clear (so probably sticking a "warranty void" label on the screws isn't enough!).

And - if they claim "improper use" or other technical grounds, they have to have a reason and can be overruled by an independent technical report.

But - the buyer has to provide the technical report if the seller makes this claim.

So - the rights are with you if you do the upgrade properly and don't break anything else, but proving it is likely to be a PITA. As usual, it would come down to how good their customer service is.
Awesome, thanks newtoswitz. Members like k_and_e could learn a thing or two from people like you and aSwissInTheUS who actually reply with some facts and logic behind them.

I agree it would be a PITA to challenge it, but I would be willing to do so if needed and I think my legal insurance may cover it. However, that really is a worst-case scenario, and I am confident that I can disassemble it while leaving it undamaged.

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As said id depends on which kind of warranty you are talking about.

The legal one set by law which is between you and the SELLER. Seller: the person or store which sold the product to you.

Or the one from the MANUFACTURER which is just a nice-to-have, with zero legal requirements do even exists, or to cover anything else apart from that the product will not convert into literal a black hole.

In your case. If HP is the maufacturer and not the seller (Sometimes manufacturer is also the seller. But most of the times seller and manufacturer are two different entities.) as well they can deny or claim the warranty to be void according to their very own warranty terms and conditions. In this case you have to read the conditions to find out what is covered and what is not covered.

If it is not covered by the manufacturer warranty go to the seller and claim your legal rights according the code of obbligations.

If HP is seller AND manufacturer also read the manufacturer warranty. If it goes beyond legal obligations claim on manufacturer warranty, if it is bellow legal obligations claim on the warranty according code of obligations.
You are right, I did not differentiate between seller and manufacturer. However usually the seller send it to the manufacturer and go by their decision, so it would be interesting to see the outcome if challenged. All interesting things to consider, thank you for taking the time to explain it.
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:49
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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This is what I (wrongly, clearly) assumed based on my previous experience was standard practise, because RAM/HDD are such fundamental things to need more capacity of.

Also, ASUS are not non-upgradeable, I had the model specified in this thread and there was no issue upgrading both RAM and HDD. https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...grade-question

It appears HP have purposefully hidden the HDD behind the same casing used to house the battery and other sensitive components, which is why they have stated unscrewing it will nullify the warranty. Sneaky bastards.

Oh well, I will still do it slowly and carefully, but that is certainly damn annoying. Alternatively, I will see if I can find a HP-authorized person (like Media Markt or similar) to do it for me.

This really is the first and only high-end gaming notebook (a desktop replacement) that I have seen with this limitation, and while it's not a deal-breaker and I am sure I can get around it, it's damn annoying in principle.
Our Acer laptops have the same problem: fiendishly complex internals with no separate RAM/HDD bays.

I upgraded the wife's daily laptop very carefully but luckily my gaming laptop was fully specced and I don't have to touch it
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:53
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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This is what I (wrongly, clearly) assumed based on my previous experience was standard practise, because RAM/HDD are such fundamental things to need more capacity of.

Also, ASUS are not non-upgradeable, I had the model specified in this thread and there was no issue upgrading both RAM and HDD. https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...grade-question

It appears HP have purposefully hidden the HDD behind the same casing used to house the battery and other sensitive components, which is why they have stated unscrewing it will nullify the warranty. Sneaky bastards.

Oh well, I will still do it slowly and carefully, but that is certainly damn annoying. Alternatively, I will see if I can find a HP-authorized person (like Media Markt or similar) to do it for me.

This really is the first and only high-end gaming notebook (a desktop replacement) that I have seen with this limitation, and while it's not a deal-breaker and I am sure I can get around it, it's damn annoying in principle.
"It appears HP have purposefully hidden the HDD behind the same casing used to house the battery and other sensitive components, which is why they have stated unscrewing it will nullify the warranty. Sneaky bastards."

The last laptop I bought did not have much memory so I planned to upgrade. It was also HP/Compaq and I was shocked to read the instructions for memory upgrade. You start by removing the keyboard!; not beyond my capability but just too much of a pain to bother to do.
I was used to laptops that have a little panel on the back that you remove to add memory.
I also never thought to check this before purchase; caveat emptor!
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Old 15.02.2017, 10:59
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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"It appears HP have purposefully hidden the HDD behind the same casing used to house the battery and other sensitive components, which is why they have stated unscrewing it will nullify the warranty. Sneaky bastards."

The last laptop I bought did not have much memory so I planned to upgrade. It was also HP/Compaq and I was shocked to read the instructions for memory upgrade. You start by removing the keyboard!; not beyond my capability but just too much of a pain to bother to do.
I was used to laptops that have a little panel on the back that you remove to add memory.
I also never thought to check this before purchase; caveat emptor!
Yeah, I feel you. I have heard of it before on consumer laptops, but on high-end gaming laptops that have what most would consider extreme RAM/HDD requirements it is pretty much unconscionable, especially when they didn't even offer more than a mere 256GB to begin with! Completely unreasonable for the market segment.
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Old 15.02.2017, 11:02
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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It appears HP have purposefully hidden the HDD behind the same casing used to house the battery and other sensitive components, which is why they have stated unscrewing it will nullify the warranty. Sneaky bastards.

Oh well, I will still do it slowly and carefully, but that is certainly damn annoying. Alternatively, I will see if I can find a HP-authorized person (like Media Markt or similar) to do it for me.

This really is the first and only high-end gaming notebook (a desktop replacement) that I have seen with this limitation, and while it's not a deal-breaker and I am sure I can get around it, it's damn annoying in principle.
Basically they are trying to avoid covering the cost of repairs from some owner opening the thing with a kitchen knife, installing the wrong RAM, leaving off the GPU heatsink, putting the long screws where the short ones should have gone, then returning the unit as if it has a manufacturing defect.

Speak to someone who works in returns at a place like Media Markt... only a small percentage of the kit they see actually has a defect, most of the time the problem is that the user hasn't read the manual, or damaged something by using force.

I've upgraded something close to 100 laptops, including soldering faster CPUs into the MoBo. In your case, as long as you use a disk and RAM which is compatible with what is already in there, and you're careful not to to break anything, replace the screws in the same place they came from, and get the ribbon connectors reseated properly you'll be fine.

Use the upgrade finder at Kingston, Corsair, or Crucial to figure out the right RAM (Speed, timing, etc) then look for the best deal.

For a spindle disk, current and heat are the things to check, and if the Bios will handle the capacity.

Depending on the model it can be a bit fiddly to get to and change the bits, but it generally just requires a bit of dexterity and concentration.

Get an antistatic mat with wriststrap and use it.
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Old 15.02.2017, 11:04
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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You are right, I did not differentiate between seller and manufacturer. However usually the seller send it to the manufacturer and go by their decision, so it would be interesting to see the outcome if challenged. All interesting things to consider, thank you for taking the time to explain it.
Correct. That why it may be important to hand over the product with a clear letter which states on which kind of warranty you claim on.

For this you have to know what is in and allowed by the code of obligations (Please read from Art. 187 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a187 onward), read the stores AGB (T&C) before you buy and than compare it with the manufactures warranty. Then claim on the one which is best for you.

Be aware that there are some stores wich have very dogdy and questionable AGBs which may no uphold in a court. That is why you should really, relly read the codes of obligation and also the AGBs. Instead of fighting a lengthy and cumbersome battle in a court, avoid those stores and to not buy from them even if the prices are good. If you still buy you have been warned. Also take any rating with a bucket of salt.

The most shady and sleazzy it-dropped-from-the-truck has "good service" when you only rate if and how fast the goods were delivered. The real service and quality of a store is after the sale in case something does not work as intended.
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Old 15.02.2017, 11:08
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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Get an antistatic mat with wriststrap and use it.
A thing which I do not understand and consideerably lowers the credibility of those "professional reviewers" of GPUs, MoBo, CPUs etc. They never have appropriate ESD protection.
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Old 15.02.2017, 11:11
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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Basically they are trying to avoid covering the cost of repairs from some owner opening the thing with a kitchen knife, installing the wrong RAM, leaving off the GPU heatsink, putting the long screws where the short ones should have gone, then returning the unit as if it has a manufacturing defect.

Speak to someone who works in returns at a place like Media Markt... only a small percentage of the kit they see actually has a defect, most of the time the problem is that the user hasn't read the manual, or damaged something by using force.

I've upgraded something close to 100 laptops, including soldering faster CPUs into the MoBo. In your case, as long as you use a disk and RAM which is compatible with what is already in there, and you're careful not to to break anything, replace the screws in the same place they came from, and get the ribbon connectors reseated properly you'll be fine.

Use the upgrade finder at Kingston, Corsair, or Crucial to figure out the right RAM (Speed, timing, etc) then look for the best deal.

For a spindle disk, current and heat are the things to check, and if the Bios will handle the capacity.

Depending on the model it can be a bit fiddly to get to and change the bits, but it generally just requires a bit of dexterity and concentration.

Get an antistatic mat with wriststrap and use it.
Thanks for the advice Jag. I will be fine with a Samsung 1TB M2 NvMe drive in the main slot, and any standard 2.5" SATA HDD/SDD will be fine for the data drive.

I also used to work in support and have been tinkering with and upgrading PC's since I was in my teens, so I should be alright.
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Old 15.02.2017, 11:30
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

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A thing which I do not understand and consideerably lowers the credibility of those "professional reviewers" of GPUs, MoBo, CPUs etc. They never have appropriate ESD protection.
It isn't as crucial as it used to be. Components are a lot more robust now. I just use one as I'd rather know that if the machine won't start after I've replaced something that it ISN'T because I zapped some component.

A very long time ago a place that I worked at ordered a batch of custom transistors, they were in matched sets of 5, and the MIL spec required that they each be marked with a serial number. When they arrived the guy in receiving opened every single package and wrote down the serial numbers of every one of the 1000 transistors. Although the bench was ESD safe, he wasn't wearing a strap... about 30% of the transistors were toast when he was done. Since they were matched sets, this meant that they all needed replacing, which we only discovered after the complete units had been built and we were testing them. It was a rather expensive mistake, since then I have been a bit anal about ESD.
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Old 15.02.2017, 11:54
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Re: Is it a purchasers legal right to be able to upgrade the RAM/HDD on their laptop?

LOL, I though too it was a newbie thread, a bit disappointed from Richdog...

It's protection against dummies.

It does not mean you can not "swap" your hdd prior to send it to repair.
Anyway, would you send all your data to them?? (even if encrypted*)

*since they could wipe them also, on top of security/privacy issues.

Or even better send it without HDD.


Unless it's really a "law focused" question, usually warranties worth peanuts, in Switzerland, and it depends on terms of contract you signed.
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