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Old 03.09.2010, 23:17
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4G query?

Hi,

I know the iphone 4 is out but isn't it really the same 3G technology? Does anyone know if any of Swisscom/Orange/Sunrise are planning to roll out 4G in Switzerland soon a la Sprint/Clearwire in the US?

Also, is anyone aware, how fast is 4G projected to be vs 3G in real life while web surfing?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 03.09.2010, 23:39
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Re: 4G query?

See the following link (in German): http://www.macprime.ch/news/article/...-april-4g-lte/

translation via google: http://translate.google.ch/translate...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8
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Old 06.09.2010, 11:45
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Re: 4G query?

In Europe the 3G networks are very fast and reliable, so the network operators are not in much of a rush to roll out 4G. In the US, Verizon and Sprint's "3G" is actually a souped-up 2G (EVDO) that can never go over 3Mbps. So they are in more of a rush to get 4G out.

AT&T's 3G (HSPA) network has good speeds, and they could probably milk that a while longer before deploying 4G, but if they want to "keep up with the Jones'" they'll have to get out 4G sooner than they expected.

Oh, but for 4G in Switzerland, yea, like the article above says, they are trialing it right now, and will probably start rolling it out next year sometime. Don't hold your breath waiting for it tho...
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Old 26.03.2012, 11:48
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Re: 4G query?

Swisscom announced in December 2011 that they are piloting real 4G LTE in a few ski resorts:
http://www.swisscom.ch/content/swiss...otprojekt.html
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Old 26.03.2012, 14:57
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Re: 4G query?

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Oh, but for 4G in Switzerland, yea, like the article above says, they are trialing it right now, and will probably start rolling it out next year sometime. Don't hold your breath waiting for it tho...
the problem being that it takes the providers FOREVER to build new mobile networks here (with some militant anti-mobile groups torpedoing every single antenna). On average, it takes around 25 months to get planning permission for each antenna. Considering that none of the providers have even filed for permission anywhere in Switzerland, the first ready-to-use LTE networks are probably more than 3 years down the road. By then, Switzerland has become a developing country in terms of mobile networks.
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Old 26.03.2012, 15:38
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Re: 4G query?

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the problem being that it takes the providers FOREVER to build new mobile networks here (with some militant anti-mobile groups torpedoing every single antenna). On average, it takes around 25 months to get planning permission for each antenna. Considering that none of the providers have even filed for permission anywhere in Switzerland, the first ready-to-use LTE networks are probably more than 3 years down the road. By then, Switzerland has become a developing country in terms of mobile networks.
No, it won't be that long. Swisscom will re-use existing 2G/3G sites, and I am sure applications to expand existing sites have had the paper-work done well in advance (who told you that it wasn't done yet?). My guess would be that we will probably see commercial LTE in the next year or 2 in major cities.
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Old 26.03.2012, 15:47
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Re: 4G query?

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(who told you that it wasn't done yet?
every request for a planning permission is published in the local community paper. So no, there weren't any.

Also, upgrading antennas for different technologies requires a new planning permission, which, again, has to be published. Didn't happen.

there's a reason why Swisscom put so much emphasis on declaring that their current antenna-upgrade plan doesn't change the antenna itself but only the antenna hook-up: they wanted to prevent a public outcry.

Peter

EDIT: here's some episodic evidence for what I just said: http://freepage.twoday.net/stories/2941142/
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Old 26.03.2012, 16:13
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Re: 4G query?

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every request for a planning permission is published in the local community paper. So no, there weren't any.

Also, upgrading antennas for different technologies requires a new planning permission, which, again, has to be published. Didn't happen.
You have checked every local news publication in Switzerland for LTE expansion notifications? Wow

I think a few must be approved at least:
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Swisscom will begin with the further expansion of LTE in 2012, focussing initially on extremely busy locations. Exactly how it proceeds will depend on the issuing of new licences for mobile frequencies in spring 2012.
http://www.swisscom.ch/en/ghq/media/...tprojekt.html#
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Old 26.03.2012, 16:26
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Re: 4G query?

Crashed and burned....

Assumpsions are dangerous, especially when they are passed off as facts.



I would ASSUME that simply changing the installations to run 4G MAY not require submissions to be put forward. Don't know for sure though.

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Old 26.03.2012, 16:39
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Re: 4G query?

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I would ASSUME that simply changing the installations to run 4G MAY not require submissions to be put forward. Don't know for sure though.
For sure adding a new technology like LTE to an existing antenna requires approval by BAKOM to make sure it's with in radiation limits, but Swisscom, Sunrise, Orange do these things in advance. If Swisscom is publicly announcing they will be launching LTE soon, like "in busy locations in 2012", then for sure they have at least some approvals already.

As for the full network, I think alot of sites are already at max allowed limits with the existing 2G/3G, so it could be difficult to add 4G to that. So either they will need to start trimming their 2G net to make way for 4G, or build new sites just for LTE ( I would guess trimming GSM would make more sense)
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Old 26.03.2012, 21:04
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For sure adding a new technology like LTE to an existing antenna requires approval by BAKOM to make sure it's with in radiation limits, but Swisscom, Sunrise, Orange do these things in advance. If Swisscom is publicly announcing they will be launching LTE soon, like "in busy locations in 2012", then for sure they have at least some approvals already.

As for the full network, I think alot of sites are already at max allowed limits with the existing 2G/3G, so it could be difficult to add 4G to that. So either they will need to start trimming their 2G net to make way for 4G, or build new sites just for LTE ( I would guess trimming GSM would make more sense)
LTE doesn't use the same frequencies as UMTS. And yes, approval IS required for every single antenna location. If you don't believe me, ask your local Bauamt or the canton. However, not all antenna locations are in areas that have land owners eager to block the approval process. If there aren't any objections, planning permission is issued within 3 months. In downtown Zurich, e.g. in and around Zurich main station, objections are going to be highly unlikely. So it's very well possible Swisscom will have a few locations in 2012. However, the 25 month period for an average antenna location is a fact. Also, in most locations, each change and each new antenna are met with fierce resistance and are debated at length - very unlikely for those to fly under the radar.
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Old 26.03.2012, 21:20
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Re: 4G query?

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the problem being that it takes the providers FOREVER to build new mobile networks here (with some militant anti-mobile groups torpedoing every single antenna). On average, it takes around 25 months to get planning permission for each antenna. Considering that none of the providers have even filed for permission anywhere in Switzerland, the first ready-to-use LTE networks are probably more than 3 years down the road. By then, Switzerland has become a developing country in terms of mobile networks.
Commissioning a new cell tower ('greenfield') is what takes up time.
Installing new equipment on an existing tower certainly requires investment; are you sure that requires a full-fledged planning permission??

Last edited by dino; 26.03.2012 at 21:23. Reason: edited to accommodate new posts
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Old 26.03.2012, 21:36
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Commissioning a new cell tower ('greenfield') is what takes up time.
Installing new equipment on an existing tower certainly requires investment; are you sure that requires a full-fledged planning permission??
Depends on what is changed. Changes in transmission power and usage of different frequencies do require planning permission. LTE requires both. On the other hand: upgrading to EDGE, for example, doesn't change the antenna's transmission power or frequency spectrum and doesn't require a planning permission.
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Old 26.03.2012, 22:44
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Re: 4G query?

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Depends on what is changed. Changes in transmission power and usage of different frequencies do require planning permission. LTE requires both. On the other hand: upgrading to EDGE, for example, doesn't change the antenna's transmission power or frequency spectrum and doesn't require a planning permission.
thanks ... that is clearer now.

and I undersand the concept of spectrum and the need for regulators to permit the deployment of new frequencies.

and I can imagine residents protesting the erection of an unsightly cell tower in their midst... but how does a diff frequency or modulation/whatever bother them??
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Old 26.03.2012, 22:57
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Re: 4G query?

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and I can imagine residents protesting the erection of an unsightly cell tower in their midst... but how does a diff frequency or modulation/whatever bother them??
It's rarely the sight of the tower that's the issue - it's the radiation fear-mongers who mobilize the population. I'm talking about those guys:

http://www.gigaherz.ch/

There you can download the necessary form for objecting against Swisscom's LTE plans :-)


I just disovered that they're aiming at LTE directly now:


http://gigaherz.ch/pages/posts/anlei...tennen1748.php
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Old 27.03.2012, 10:10
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Re: 4G query?

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LTE doesn't use the same frequencies as UMTS. And yes, approval IS required for every single antenna location. If you don't believe me, ask your local Bauamt or the canton. However, not all antenna locations are in areas that have land owners eager to block the approval process. If there aren't any objections, planning permission is issued within 3 months. In downtown Zurich, e.g. in and around Zurich main station, objections are going to be highly unlikely. So it's very well possible Swisscom will have a few locations in 2012. However, the 25 month period for an average antenna location is a fact. Also, in most locations, each change and each new antenna are met with fierce resistance and are debated at length - very unlikely for those to fly under the radar.
I'm not sure why you are hung-up on the building-permit thing. Yes, it takes time, and yes it can be a lengthy process, and that is why the operators start the paperwork process well in advance. It's not like Swisscom suddenly decided last year to build a LTE network. It's been in the pipe for years. There's alot of other things that need to be done as well, like bringing fiber to the sites, upgrading the core network, frequency planning, handovers to 2G/3G, etc. The build permit is just one tick-box in a long list of things needed to launch LTE. The nut-jobs protesting the build permits have been there since day one, but the 3G nets were still built, right?

If Swisscom rolls out LTE the same way they did UMTS way back when (2003 or so?), they will start by turing it on in some major cities, wait a little and see how it goes, and then start pushing outwards into the more rural areas. And based on Swisscom's press announcement, it sounds like that's what they will do. Start with some major cities by end of 2012 and expand outwards during the next few years. I would guess in 3 years time, there should be a decent amount of LTE coverage if all goes well.
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