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Old 13.09.2010, 11:08
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Internet Network + phone in one socket?

Hi,

My house has phone sockets that have 4 individual sockets each - they seem to be 2 x phone sockets plus 2 x network sockets. So surely I should be able to connect a phone at the same time as a network device (wireless access point / printer / HD etc)?


My problem is I think the first boxes are incorrectly wired, meaning there are only wires connected at the start of the wiring.

I know this isn't enough info to go on, but can anyone suggest how I get the hardwiring sorted without paying many hundreds for an engineer?!

Thanks

J
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Old 14.09.2010, 08:01
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

You won't have 'network' ports coming into the house from any of the internet service providers.

Therefore, there must be a location in the house where these cables come from.

Once you have tracked that down post additional details.

A couple of things worth noting:

1/ If you have ADSL, this comes ito the house over the standard telephone line. You then have to install a filter to split the ADSL and the phone signals. Either you can do this from a central location, or you have to do this at every phone point, which will depend on how your house is wired.

2/ It is possible to use a network RJ-45 socket for phone (if correctly wired of course). The RJ-14 plug will fit and connect into a RJ-45 socket.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_jack

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

Last edited by szhjcn; 14.09.2010 at 08:04. Reason: added web links
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Old 14.09.2010, 09:04
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

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My house has phone sockets that have 4 individual sockets each - they seem to be 2 x phone sockets plus 2 x network sockets.
Sounds like the set up I did at my last apartment. I wanted to switch to ISDN but had to change all the wiring and plugs. My electrician reminded me (confirmed by landlord) that if I changed everything to ISDN that I'd probably have to hire an electrician again when I moved out to change it all back to analog if the next renter didn't want the ISDN set up.
So when we upgraded my system my electrician put in plugs for both ISDN and analog telephone service which also could be set up as a home network (2+2). Afterwards it was a simple matter of just having to move the cable from the ISDN connectors to the analog side if the next renter preferred analog.
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Old 14.09.2010, 09:49
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

Great - Thanks for the advice!

Therefore, there must be a location in the house where these cables come from:-
The entry point to the house is in the basement, where there are two of these 4-socket units. So it seems a perfect set up to let me connect the DSL modem in the basement, then feed the internet/network around to all the other sockets in the house, plus phones, of course (I only need one phone socket). I understand that I'll need to add a filter between phone & socket.
I think I'm going to need an electician . What's annoying is that I expect the an electrician will spend 5 minutes changing the wiring behind the first socket and it'll all work fine. I'd like to be able to do that myself, but I guess that's why they're engineers and I'm not!


The ISDN --> ADSL switch over is later today, so I'll see how and goes and post back if it all goes boobs-up
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Old 15.09.2010, 08:53
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

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The ISDN --> ADSL switch over is later today, so I'll see how and goes and post back if it all goes boobs-up


Not sure what you mean by this?

You will either have Analogue or ISDN. - This is primarily for your phone connection. ISDN, is digital and has a couple of advantages:
  1. You can have two separate lines with two different numbers
  2. For dial-up you can use both lines (64k each) to give you 128k speeds.
Obviously point 2. is not used often anymore as ADSL is far faster etc... but some systems still use ISDN dial-up modems and/or to backup ADSL connections.

ADSL can be added to both.

For the majority of people, Analogue is sufficient with the addition of ADSL or cable-internet. Especially as if you want extra lines you can do this with VOIP/SIP etc...
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Old 15.09.2010, 09:06
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

Just to clarify, I have had ISDN for a while, but I have switched to ADSL since I no longer need 2 phone lines and wanted higher internet speed.

So, I have now set up the ADSL connection and its all fine.

As it stands, the only working wall socket I know of is right at the top of the house (not convenient at all), so later today or tomorrow I will start experimenting with installing the modem at the 'entry point' in the basement - the idea is, as above - to access internet/network from any room, plus being able to plug in the phone base station; In this way I'd like to put a wireless access point in one room, a printer in another, my PC in another and possibly a dirty great hard drive somewhere.

Can this be done? A bit like having a router socket in each room. Apologies for my ignorance. I'm good with electronics but networks do my head in!
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Old 15.09.2010, 10:00
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

Still confused

The phone line will be either ISDN or Analogue. If you don't need two phone lines or the other advantages that ISDN brings, then you should have this changed to Analogue (as this will be cheaper).

But: You cannot use ISDN phones on an Analogue line or vice versa. Same goes for Modems...

If you plug an analogue phone into a ISDN socket it will destroy the phone. Not sure what would happen if you plugged an ISDN phone into an analogue socket, think it just won't work.

So first you need to be sure what connection type you have Analogue or ISDN (Digital).
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Old 15.09.2010, 10:10
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

Not sure what's confusing. My posts must be crap!

Does this help?:- I had ISDN, but I have now changed to ADSL. (Swisscom changed the line type, new modem etc). I understand the differences.
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Old 15.09.2010, 10:47
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

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As it stands, the only working wall socket I know of is right at the top of the house (not convenient at all), so later today or tomorrow I will start experimenting with installing the modem at the 'entry point' in the basement - the idea is, as above - to access internet/network from any room, plus being able to plug in the phone base station; In this way I'd like to put a wireless access point in one room, a printer in another, my PC in another and possibly a dirty great hard drive somewhere.

Can this be done? A bit like having a router socket in each room.
Really depends on the cabling. I will assume the you now have analogue phone line.

What cables do you have running through the house?

Sounds like who ever installed the cabling did so in such a way that from the basement you can distribute both phone and network to different rooms in the house. Which I deduce from your previous post:

'The entry point to the house is in the basement, where there are two of these 4-socket units. So it seems a perfect set up to let me connect the DSL modem in the basement, then feed the internet/network around to all the other sockets in the house, plus phones, of course (I only need one phone socket). I understand that I'll need to add a filter between phone & socket.'

I am guessing that one of these 4-socket units goes to one room, and the second one goes to another? And you can effectively use these like a patch panel. So if you have a ADSL modem with 4-ports, you could patch these into the socket and provide 2-ports in each of the two rooms where the other end of the sockets are. Or you could add a 4-pot hub if you wanted to activate the ports in both rooms.

You could then add one or more wireless access points/routers to allow you to have wireless in addition to the hard-wired network connections.

I have one of these:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=45778

Which I have also used to test sockets are wired correctly (by running a patch cable from the unit into the socket) also to 'find' which socket is wired to where).

In the Q/A they say this device and the one below cannot do this (test sockets), but all you need is a patch cable so you can connect to the socket (just like having a join in hte cable).

This device is cheaper and seems to have simular capability (but not manual mode).

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=99067

But you CANNOT use these on 'live' sockets. There are devices to do this, but they are more expensive.

I assume you can buy these here as well from somewhere like Conrad, or distrelic.

http://www1.conrad.ch/scripts/wgate/...=5&navi=oben_1

Same device but more expensive (at bottom), however you can view the datasheet and manuals (in English):

https://www.distrelec.ch/ishopWebFro...eEnabled=false
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Old 15.09.2010, 10:50
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

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Not sure what's confusing. My posts must be crap!

Does this help?:- I had ISDN, but I have now changed to ADSL. (Swisscom changed the line type, new modem etc). I understand the differences.
No does not help.

What is your phone line? I assume this is now Analogue (where you did have ISDN (digital) before).

ADSL is the system you will use for internet access. You can use ADSL on either Analogue or ISDN.
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Old 15.09.2010, 10:52
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

Put this another way, did you have to change the phone(s) you have?

Or if you look at the Modem it will probably say Analogue or ISDN. If not post the exact make and model number.
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Old 15.09.2010, 12:29
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

szhjcn - you're being very patient! Lets forget the analogue/digital debate. The fact is that I now have Analogue DSL.

Many thanks for taking the time - the LAN testers will be a big help. Have just ordered one. There are 6 rooms which have the '4 socket' units, so I will see if they can be configured per my plan.

The two units in the basement, as far as I can see, were used as 'IN' and 'OUT' sockets. So the phone line would come in, pass through the modem, then the router and a phone filter connected to the OUT socket, where the OUT socket is the one which is connected the the others around the house.. This is the bit that foxes me, because this would mean networked devices would be connected in parallel, and I have no idea if that will work!
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Old 15.09.2010, 12:49
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

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szhjcn - you're being very patient! Lets forget the analogue/digital debate. The fact is that I now have Analogue DSL.

Many thanks for taking the time - the LAN testers will be a big help. Have just ordered one. There are 6 rooms which have the '4 socket' units, so I will see if they can be configured per my plan.

The two units in the basement, as far as I can see, were used as 'IN' and 'OUT' sockets. So the phone line would come in, pass through the modem, then the router and a phone filter connected to the OUT socket, where the OUT socket is the one which is connected the the others around the house.. This is the bit that foxes me, because this would mean networked devices would be connected in parallel, and I have no idea if that will work!
I think you mean you have Analogue ADSL. The A means asyncronus, not analogue. But that is neither here nor there. If your place is wired up the same as mine then you cannot use any of the wall sockets as "network" points as there is only one single twisted pair wired to each female RJ-45. My house is wired so that at some point in the house a single twisted pair comes in (could be ISDN or Analo.) from that point either it is patched to a socket that distributes the line to one socket in the house if you have an analogue line. If you have an ISDN setup then two patches will be made via the ISDN NTU (small ISDN box) to distribute the (possible) two lines, via 2 twisted pair to the rest of the house. Changing the phones is not a must if you change between analogue and ISDN you will just need to make sure you are patched to the correct port on the NTU. The NTU will have two digital ports and two analogue ones. Simples!
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Old 15.09.2010, 13:24
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

Nelly_Da_Hefferlump - That does sound the same as mine. Thanks for explaining.

Looking inside the wall sockets I see each phone socket has a twisted pair, and the 2 RJ-45s share 4 wires. So, if I now understand this correctly: if I had kept the ISDN service I could have used the RJ-45 sockets anywhere in the house to connect to a network? That would be a bit gutting but I guess it'll teach me to do some research first . If this is true, I'll just sacrifice my new faster (20MB vs 5MB) analogue internet by calling Swisscom and changing back to ISDN. GRRR



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Old 15.09.2010, 13:40
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

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Nelly_Da_Hefferlump - That does sound the same as mine. Thanks for explaining.

Looking inside the wall sockets I see each phone socket has a twisted pair, and the 2 RJ-45s share 4 wires. So, if I now understand this correctly: if I had kept the ISDN service I could have used the RJ-45 sockets anywhere in the house to connect to a network? That would be a bit gutting but I guess it'll teach me to do some research first . If this is true, I'll just sacrifice my new faster (20MB vs 5MB) analogue internet by calling Swisscom and changing back to ISDN. GRRR
Nope. A PC network or ethernet network needs at least 2 twisted pair per socket (gigabit needs all 8 for some reason, even though it still only "uses" 4 ). With the ISDN setup you would have been able to connect two phones per room that is all. Sorry!
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Old 16.09.2010, 09:44
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

Conductors required
10BASE-T (IEEE) and 100BASE-TX (IEEE) Ethernet connections require two cable pairs. 1000BASE-T (IEEE) and 1000BASE-TX (TIA/EIA-854, requiring category 6 cabling) Ethernet connections require four cable pairs. Four pair cable is by far most commonly available type.

So if the cable only has one pair, or is NOT proper network cable, then this would need to be changed. The socket should also be of the correct type.

All my network sockets have been wired with cat5e cabling even though some are used for a phone line.
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Old 16.09.2010, 10:51
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Re: Internet Network + phone in one socket?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADSL

Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line (ADSL) is one form of the Digital Subscriber Line technology, a data communications technology that enables faster data transmission over copper telephone lines than a conventional voiceband modem can provide. It does this by utilizing frequencies that are not used by a voice telephone call.[1] A splitter, or DSL filter, allows a single telephone connection to be used for both ADSL service and voice calls at the same time. ADSL can generally only be distributed over short distances from the central office, typically less than 4 kilometres (2 mi),[2] but has been known to exceed 8 kilometres (5 mi) if the originally laid wire gauge allows for farther distribution.
At the telephone exchange the line generally terminates at a Digital Subscriber Line Access Multiplexer (DSLAM) where another frequency splitter separates the voice band signal for the conventional phone network. Data carried by the ADSL are typically routed over the telephone company's data network and eventually reach a conventional Internet Protocol network.

Can be used on an Analogue or ISDN (digital) phone line.
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